DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeating it

Nothing beats it.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

So, essentially, like i the advice i always send people who complain on live, "DO MORE ELBOWS". Hell, in the case of even knees will do.

Sebo, you forgot to mention that the "OMG SUPER BROKEN PWNZOR LAZOR MOVE" takes 18 frames to come out for a measly 18 damage. People were discussing risk reward ratio, calling vanessa cheap. By WTF definition is a risk-reward "cheap" as in "less for more" where i do a move for 18 frames and it nets me 18 damage and only +4 frames on CH? Other characters have faster floaters that take half your lifebar - are they insane? God forbid they stop mashing and actually block the motherfucking move, she's at -8.

The defensive elbow might be "the newbie killer" because it stops people who only try to mix up highs and lows, thinking VF is some kind of DoA, but against people who actually play VF and bother to read the frames, the +2 on Hit and +4 on CH is next to nothing.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif= is really a great move


I realized the greatness of it two weeks ago .......top 5 for sure

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

You speaka the trutha. if I saw someone abusing the move at least on paper I'd try 9K+G to get a float for about half dmg.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

It's not even me that's speaking the truth, all of this has been already said in in another thread, here in VFdc, not even a month ago:

It's the "vanessa's top ten moves" thread, so we're praising her "broken" DS moves and BLACK L A C asks "what to do AFTER successfully hitting with a ?"

So the answers are like "another but it will lose if the opponent does a mid" (HELLO! VF = mid or throw game?) or "well, you could try throwing a standard punch" (gee THANKS) or even better "try doing OM " (after successfully hitting with a 18 frame move i remind you)

After that there are some suggestions like + or doing a + cut-in inashi, but these just add insult to injury - doing risky moves that require yomi AFTER already doing a slow move that requires yomi in the first place. Simply put, abusing this move requires guessing the next 2 moves of your opponent. Vanessa mind readers unite.

So you want a move that kills lows and highs? My advice, try blocking low and doing + . Now THAT'S worth the risk. And don'even try whining "but you can get low thrown by blocking low?!?" on me cause i can surely reply "OMG you can get knee launched by doing db+p?!?". You have mind reading powers, remember?

Good move? Yes. Broken, top ten, lazors lightsabers and deathstars? Hell no.

It's just a panic button people, nothing to see here, move along.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Slightly more than a panic button, it can effectively used to break opponents rhythm if they dont know it really beats all lows and highs. But I agree, its definitely NOT broken.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

...

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

erdraug, I was trying to be more or less polite in the wtf vanessa cheap thread, but you are just plain ignorant if you dont see the benefit of a move that beats essentially all lows from ANY non-guaranteed situation (full sabaki frames), or if you don't know what to do with a +4 advantage.

yeah, it's 18 frames. +4 CH means if you do it again, it effectively executes at 14 frames.

This means that if you CH hit with it (which you're going to do), you can just do another one, and beat pretty much any attack other than a frame-perfect elbow that does more than 17 points of damage. Which actually rules out quite a few characters elbows completely. If you NH with it, its still hard to stop with an elbow online.

This is why people complain about defensive elbow spam online.

Even if your opponent has a sufficiently damaging elbow, and the reflexes to deal with it, you get to mix up ws P / throw/ lowthrow.

All this, again, from a move that beat any low at any non-guaranteed disadvantage, and highs (at, what -7 frames? which means it's slightly anti-clash as well?), and is SAFE on block. Compare this to other characters . . . who else can do this?

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Unfortunately, in the online world (read: latency) this move doesn't always work as advertised. I've been floated out of the ring so many times for trying to stop El Blaze, LeiFei or Kage with the elbow to no avail it's not even funny.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Really? At +4 Vanessa can beat any of the opponent's attack with an mid? THAT'S JUST BROKEN!!! I mean, what kind of game would this be if every character could do that? Oh wait...

And I mean, the payoff is just enormous too. Something like 20 damage. Compared to say Jacky doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to beat every move the opponent has, that just does a measly 43 and gives knockdown.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All this, again, from a move that beat any low at any non-guaranteed disadvantage, and highs (at, what -7 frames? which means it's slightly anti-clash as well?), and is SAFE on block. Compare this to other characters . . . who else can do this?</div></div>Uhm, no it clashes very early. It has no clash beating properties.

And yes, it's "safe". It's -8. Do you seriously, seriously think this move should be punishable?

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Beat lows and highs.. wait...its coming to me... low block!

Except low block isnt -8 on block! ZOMG! Low block is broken!

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Hence my question marks - I'm not sitting in front of a VF5 machine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At +4 Vanessa can beat any of the opponent's attack with an mid?</div></div>

Well, duh, obviously there are better options at advantage. Sebo has been wondering why people complain about REPEATED defensive elbows; I was attempting to explain why it actually works online.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Compared to say Jacky doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
</div></div>

yeah, cause that beats highs & lows from DISADVANTAGE . . . oh wait.

Defend != beat directly. If you don't understand why one is better than the other, you haven't been playing people who do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif x N online.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

If you meet a vanessa player who does 1p when she's +4 as some sort of nitaku you should be happy. Either that player doesn't understand her or he has poor reflexes. If you keep eating it over and over in loops he should be happy though; cause you're an even worse player then he is and probably a 2p spammer in diss.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

FYI I tested, it clashes in -4 and worse.

You are soon going personal. So far I have ignored this because of assumed stupidity though. Im too nice a guy.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Ok, look, like I've said multiple times, I'm not saying its the god move. I'm saying it is a uniquely (no one else has anything like it ) useful and safe move. I'm saying that, yeah, despite good VF theory, it works well online, even in stupid loops.

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT EATING IT IN LOOPS. I'm trying to explain to you vanessa apologists why it's a better move than you're trying to play it off as, and why it is that people (like Chunbelievable, for instance, who despite what you may think about pai, is not a masher) get on shoutbox and go repeated DS elbow wtf?

you'd be really surprised how well Jeff /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif CH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif CH ~ lowthrow once they guard low, works at shutting down e.g. leifei online. DS elbow is the same theory, it's just SAFER.

Everything jeff has to beat highs from disadvantage is punishable (aside from universal dP); if he wants to beat lows from disadvantage he's got, what, jumping kick? People tend to complain about safe moves that beat stuff from disadvantage, for good reason (cf Kage's chop; yes I know it has better rewards). Should it be punishable? On balance, probably not. Should /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ? Absolutely.

Ok, good info, am I right about my guesstimate -7 frames still beat high P?
As for the "personal", you havent seen personal. Don't feed me bullshit & I wont send it right back at you; deal?

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Just who exactly are you trying to impress here? Those who know how to play against Vanessa or those who dont? Those who know how to play in general?

What if this move is unique? So what? All characters should preferably have something unique to make the game interesting.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

I'm not trying to "impress" anyone.

It matters when moves are unique, because they are often game breaking. Theres a reason almost no one has easily accessible full circular safe mids (cough cough) or ridiculously fast backwards ARM speed (cough cough).

I'm not saying defensive elbow is in this category, just that its a lot closer than some of yall seem to think.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

All right Im gonna spell it out for ya, since you dont seem to grasp when people are making fun out of you.

Imagine situation where Vanessa is -5, not that hard. She does magnificent /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif which beats all highs and lows in this situation.

Except! An opponent who knows something about anything, would be doing a standard mid/throw nitaku at this point. Lets examine the two options:

a.) Opponent does a throw. CLASH! Big surprise, happens against most other characters as well. Except those who have better options than vanessa.

b.) Opponent does a midhit launcher. HIT! Vanessa is up for an air trip. Against Akira (who I refer to because he is my main) would get something around 90-91 points of damage in this situation, with a move that would already interrupt Vanes every move in this situation. thank you for flying Akira airlines.

Now. Tell me why should I give a rats ass about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif? What you got is a weapon to kill noobs who spam /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Big deal, other characters got those as well. Dont get fixated on the seemingly unique properties which, when examined closely, dont matter so much.

EDIT: lol arm

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Right, cause predictable mid-or-throw is a great idea against a character who can make guesses to sabaki damn near anything.

Yeah, I dunno why anyone who knows anything about anything would be trying to P or lowP at +6. Oh, wait, it beats fuzzy guard cleanly and safely.

Again, not saying its god move, just saying its a lot better than you're giving it credit for.

Ask a shun player how useless defensive elbow is.

 

Re: DS1P (down-back punch): What it beats/defeatin

Saying that 1p should be counterable (which it seems you're arguing) is absolutely rediculous KoD. It's a sabaki at 18f that does 18dmg and gives +4 on counterhit. If it knocked down / gave crumble then maybe, but in it's current form no way in hell. How about instead of comparing it to, say, JEFF's options to beat highs from dissadvantage (I can't believe you did this) you compare it to other sabaki's risk/payoff in the game.