dumb question: changes in counters from VF2 to VF4

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by vfbum, Feb 14, 2002.

  1. vfbum

    vfbum Well-Known Member

    greets.

    I never really played much of VF3, but I have played my share of VF2, and it looks like somewhere between 2 and 4 the system for countering has changed, no? Yeah yeah yeah I should've done this a while ago.

    Anyway, it seems that in VF2 the counterability of moves was an "ordered set", going from least counterable to most counterable like:

    Uncounterable, PK counterable, Elbow Counterable, Sidekick Counterable, throw Counterable

    and if a move is counterable by, say, sidekicks, then it is also counterable by PK and elbow

    and in VF4 throw counterable is "less" counterable than P counterable? Isn't this counter-intuitive? It seems like throws do so much damage that even throw-escapes won't make up for this.
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
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    Myke623
    It's not a dumb question.

    At first it may not make sense, especially when you're looking at it from the perspective of VF3. But if you consider the change in VF4 throw mechanics (i.e. addition of execution time) then it makes begins to make sense that throw counterability has the highest precedence.

    Most throws execute in 8 frames, which is faster than all/most character's punch. So that explains why "throw counterability" suddenly jumps to the top of the list.

    This was first mention in this thread: <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=14569&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=>VF4 Arcadia Notes</a>

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


    - There's a pic of Lau's sidekick being blocked, and the blurb says
    something along the lines of it not being P-counterable, so they recommend
    countering with a throw because it's faster than a P.


    <hr></blockquote>

    If you read the entire thread, you'll find that the piece of information above caused quite a stir, as it was (as you've noticed) quite a departure from VF3. It's kinda funny now in hindsight.
     
  3. vfbum

    vfbum Well-Known Member

    Thanks Myke!

    So why would I ever use punch counter in VF4?
     
  4. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    So why would I ever use punch counter in VF4?

    Guaranteed damage vs players that DTEG after a move that is both throw and P counterable.
     
  5. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Not to mention some players do not understand when it is their turn to attack, when it is their turn to defend...
     
  6. vfbum

    vfbum Well-Known Member

    dteg = double throw escape guard? so a P-counter will smack them in their missed throw animation?
     
  7. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    DTEG = double throw escape guard, yes. (I know some people use G-DTE, but DTEG makes more sense to me just from the perspective that you guard after the DTE, not before. No matter, it's just a question of semantics, really.)

    Easiest to explain with an example.

    Akira's shoulder ram: -13f if blocked.
    Akira's PP: -8f if blocked.

    Any move that has -8f if blocked is (normal) throw counterable.

    If Akira does PP then DTEG, Kage's P will be blocked, and up to 2 different throws will be escaped.
    If Akira does Shoulder Ram then DTEG, Up to 2 different throws will be escaped, but Kage can PPb+P for guaranteed damage (ver.C only, since shoulder ram recovered faster in ver.B).
     
  8. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    dteg = double throw escape guard? so a P-counter will smack them in their missed throw animation?

    The P counter will hit, yes. But not out of the missed throw animation. If you are doing the DTEG right, you won't see a missed throw animation. The animation will be just a normal attack into blocking stance. The throw escapes are buffered in during the attacks recovery--you can't do anything else anyway. The P counter hits as a minor counter during the attack's recovery before you can block. The DTEG would work against a slower counter attack however, say a knee float combo attempt.

    This is a theory we were discussing when I was up in Toronto last month... basically think of attacks that are only throw counterable as having more complex command motions with the DTEG included. For example, always buffer in a DTEG whenever you do a knee with Wolf or Jeff. If done properly, even if the knee major counters like you want it to, the DTEG happens during the recovery, and you should still be able to do any float combo of your choice. I haven't been able to apply this theory myself, but was wondering what others thought about it. Damn, I know I'm promoting carpal tunnel syndrome with this one.... /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif
     
  9. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    For example, always buffer in a DTEG whenever you do a knee with Wolf or Jeff. If done properly, even if the knee major counters like you want it to, the DTEG happens during the recovery, and you should still be able to do any float combo of your choice.

    That helps, I guess. I always thought throw escapes were done reflex. Using another (and more familiar) example, someone executes Akira's shoulder ram. If I see that it is blocked, I'll enter the throw escapes. Otherwise I perform the followup combo. Very hard for me to do.

    Going by your suggestion, I'll input throw escapes during recovery frames, and I'll still have enough time to do the following combo. That takes some serious manual dexterity.
     
  10. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Did a quick test:

    Akira's D,f+P+K: -13f if blocked
    Jacky's f+P: executes in 14f
    Jacky's df+P: executes in 13f

    Akira inputs sequence: D,f+P+K, db+P+K, G
    Jacky blocks D,f+P+K then tries f+P
    Result = Jacky gets reversed

    Akira inputs sequence: D,f+P+K, b+P+K, G
    Jacky blocks D,f+P+K then tries df+P
    Result = Jacky connects as mC, Akira *cannot* reverse in time

    Conclusion: Jacky players can connect with df+PPP ~ Pounce string after blocking a shoulder ram, guaranteed!

    More generally, buffering a reversal after a blocked move that has -x frames disadvantage will only reverse moves that have >= x+1 execution.
     
  11. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Most throws execute in 8 frames, which is faster than all/most character's punch. So that explains why "throw counterability" suddenly jumps to the top of the list.

    What about LP MC throws? For a lightweigh like Pai, a LP MC gives her a +5 frame advantage and since a throw takes 8 frames to execute, why is it that you can still break the throw attempt by punching (which takes at least 11 frames)?
     
  12. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    What about LP MC throws? For a lightweigh like Pai, a LP MC gives her a +5 frame advantage and since a throw takes 8 frames to execute, why is it that you can still break the throw attempt by punching (which takes at least 11 frames)?

    Because you are already in execution phase of the punch, and normal throws cannot connect on a character that has already begun execution.
     
  13. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    More generally, buffering a reversal after a blocked move that has -x frames disadvantage will only reverse moves that have >= x+1 execution.

    There is some lag associated with moves that require more than one input:

    Lei's ff+P: 14f ex (two inputs)
    Lei's df+K: 15f ex (one input)
    Lei's uf+K+G: 16f ex (one input)

    Jacky's db+K: -15f blocked
    Jacky's db+KK: -16f blocked

    Jacky tries db+K, gets blocked, then blocks high.
    Lei's ff+P gets blocked (!!!)
    Lei's df+K hits
    Lei's uf+K+G gets blocked

    Jacky tries db+KK, gets blocked, then blocks high.
    Lei's ff+P hits (but only if you input ff+P very fast)
    Lei's df+K hits
    Lei's uf+K+G hits

    Conclusion: Although Lei's ff+P executes faster than df+K or uf+K+G, the fact that it is a double input move makes the effective execution time 16~17f, hence it is a less reliable mC tool against blocked low moves than df+K and uf+K+G.
     
  14. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Conclusion: Jacky players can connect with df+PPP ~ Pounce string after blocking a shoulder ram, guaranteed!

    More generally, buffering a reversal after a blocked move that has -x frames disadvantage will only reverse moves that have >= x+1 execution.


    If the Akira player does not buffer in the throw escape, will Jacky's Smash Hook still connect?
     
  15. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    If the Akira player does not buffer in the throw escape, will Jacky's Smash Hook still connect?

    Yes.
     
  16. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Conclusion: Although Lei's ff+P executes faster than df+K or uf+K+G, the fact that it is a double input move makes the effective execution time 16~17f, hence it is a less reliable mC tool against blocked low moves than df+K and uf+K+G.

    After more testing, I actually managed to get Lei's ff+P counter -15f blocked, but you really need to input very fast:

    Akira's P+K+G: -15f blocked (hits mid)
    Akira's d+K: -15f blocked (hits low)

    Akira's BC: 13f ex -- can mC both moves above
    Lei's ff+P: 14f ex -- can mC both moves above

    Conclusion: contrary to what I thought before, there is no additional time involved in "standing up" when mC'ing a blocked low move. But it still "feels" that countering blocked low moves needs 1-2f more than countering blocked mid/high moves to me for some weird reason.
     
  17. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    In addition to the thread Myke pointed out, you can see how much <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=versus&Number=19866&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=Mr.%20Bungle&Match=Username&Searchpage=6&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=19866>vf4 sucks</a> /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    I didn't get too deeply into VF3 myself (compared to how I played VF2) so the concept of throws being the be-all-end-all minor counter tool was also weird to me at first. It's sort of justified with the multiple command throw escape option select, but it still seems like weird logic to me.
     
  18. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    I always thought throw escapes were done reflex.

    Well there's still a certain timing to it. I don't think it works if you just bang out f+K, b+P+G, f+P+G(hold G) as quickly as possible. I'm pretty certain if you enter the b+P+G in too early (i.e. before your opponent can even throw you) you will not get the throw escape, even if he's doing a b+P+G throw.

    That takes some serious manual dexterity.

    That's why I added the disclaimer to the end of my post... =)
    Note that I doubt I will ever do DTEG after every barely throw counterable attack I use... I'm too lazy. But this is a valuable technique to know, and I love this theoretical part of the game ~~~> FeixaQ keep posting your experiment results. This is great stuff! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif
     
  19. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    Erm just a couple more questions /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

    Is the frame disadvantage the same when a move whiffs? Let's say Lion's punch whiffs and does not connect, is Lion still at a disadvantage of -1 frame (when opponent blocks it is at -1)?

    Lion's sidekick d/f+K is listed -7 when blocked. Is it still throw counterable or can I use that one frame to input a P to interrupt the throw attempt?
     
  20. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Is the frame disadvantage the same when a move whiffs? Let's say Lion's punch whiffs and does not connect, is Lion still at a disadvantage of -1 frame (when opponent blocks it is at -1)?

    -1f is for a blocked attack. If the opponent is crouching, and the move whiffs... well, I would imagine that the frame disadvantage is the recovery time of the move (which should generally be longer than blocked attack frames), but I don't think the blue book gives that data...?

    Lion's sidekick d/f+K is listed -7 when blocked. Is it still throw counterable or can I use that one frame to input a P to interrupt the throw attempt?

    Not throw counterable (need -8f). Not P counterable (need -12f? -13f?)
     

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