Electric Cancel 4: World tourney... Oct. 26th

Re: EC4 results and comments

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You can't expect a tournament to have a big showing of competent VF players if it's part of a Tekken tourney as a "side" event.

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I checked with someone more knowledgeable than I about this. You're right, you're not actually speaking for the rest of us. My apology.

I guess I can ask how you would know what MadKatJun can or can't expect. If I was putting on a big tournament and gave reason for people to show, I would expect they might show - else I wouldn't bother (but that's me - not him, and not you). I'm suprised you would treat a guest so poorly, what you said can be translated to "Fuck you and your tournament, it's not good enough for me cause it's not VF only. I'm betting there's probably a bunch of others that feel the same way... so nyah nyah nyah!"

I don't understand the reasoning for your pessimism given the circumstances. Electric Cancel puts out a huge effort to make a big tournament, it happens one of their big stars (Mad Dog Jin) happens to play VF4. They open their event to VF4 players (granted, we have to pay admission - so in that sense the more the merrier for them... but I'm willing to pay the admission, as are others - I imagine many tournaments charge entry fees). It's no longer JUST a Tekken event. I can actually play VF4 in a tournament against great players and win money if I'm good enough. If you don't want to go, that's your choice. I guess it irks me that you'd represent VFDC like that (my problem, not yours). I like this board and I want other people to like it, whether they play VF or not.

Edit: I see you did apologize to MadKat. Cool.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

The reasoning behind my pessimism is the fact that guys like IMF, Blondeone, and myself were unable to attend. I'm originally from L.A., so I would've jumped at the opportunity to attend a tourney like this if I was still living there. As I've said before, any tourney is better than none at all, but it's dissapointing that more high level players didn't show up. I hope that clears things up once and for all.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

It clears things up for me.

Hope to see you and the rest of the Florida guys for E3 2003 and EC5.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

in no way was VF4 just a 'side' event. We never treat any of our tourneys as a 'side' event. We would have never set up a tourney in that way if that was the case. VF4 had a much smaller turnout that I had expected... we had around 4 machines that could have been set up for VF4 if more people had shown. We will be posting up the finals vid for VF4 within the coming weeks...
Also, everyone should thank Jhky for helping us run the whole VF4 tourney. She did a great job... thanx once again.
If EC did not take the tourney seriously, the prizes whould have been much worse. at least 200+ dollars were added to the VF4 tourney alone, even though there was such a small showing. let's see... 12 people showed up... MDJ entered tourney for free... so that's a total of 11 times 15 dollars in entree fee... so that should have been what... around 165 dollars for the prize to be split between the three.... yet, we gave around 185 dollars to first place, and I think 80+ to 2nd and I forget what the third place prize was...
We're not 100 percent sure as to whether we're going to host another VF tourney or not. But if we do... it'll be VF: evo. neways, I had a great time meeting all the new people... also finally found out the name of the guy that kicked my ass at UCLA neways... we supported VF4 because I personally think VF4 is a great game, and was very curious as to where US gameplay stood. Although a small turnout, EC tourney is about quality rather than quantity, so maybe we'll hold EC5 and invite Shinz... but that all depends on people's interest and support... it was very nice meeting all of you...

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

definitely a big thanks to you and to Jhky and everyone involved in organizing the VF4 tourney. It didn't feel like a side tournament to me - just a smaller version of Tekken tourneys.

I hope the EC folks will continue to include VF in future tournaments, and I hope LA can come up with some more entrants next time!

grib.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Whenever I'm feeling like VF isn't hardcore enough in the US, this guy always picks me up.... Watch in Amazement!

Blonde_one's Pickmeup!

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

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They open their event to VF4 players (granted, we have to pay admission - so in that sense the more the merrier for them... but I'm willing to pay the admission, as are others - I imagine many tournaments charge entry fees).

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actaully, ec only charges if you enter a tournament--i'd have to double check. anybody could've came in and just watched the events for free. they charge for entry in participating a tourney becuase the money they collect is ditributed to the eventual top3 winners of each event (1st-60% 2nd-30% 3rd-10%..or something close to that). a small % might be taken from that to help pay for the place (i could be wrong though). alot of the ec staff also takes donations, does raffles, and some of them are quite good so they enter as many other tekken tourneys in hopes of winning the money so they can put it back into their own tourney (hilfiger for example--1 of ec staff, won 2 different $1000 tekken 4 tourneys within the past 4 months...i'm sure most of that went to himself lol, but some went to ec4 i'm sure.

does vfdc hold any money tourneys? if not, maybe they should cuase let's face it.. aside from fame and glory, $$$ is also quite motivational. about vfdc tourneys.. are these straight up sponsored by vfdc or are these tourneys that just happen to have alot of vfdc members participating? it might be a good idea for vfdc to hold something major like how srk.com, ec.com, tz.com, and sc.com hold tourneys for their respective games. (if vfdc already does, my apologies for thinking otherwise.) these types of events only promote the respective game imo (especially if done smoothly).

btw, did any1 talk with mdj or ask how he fairs among the vf players in korea? granted he was good, i wonder how good he is among the vf'ers there. it might've been hard though..i dont think he spoke any english.

also, what was the kage combo (exact notation) that he seemed to setup but not complete. i heard some in the crowd somewhat relieved he didn't get it at times..it could've meant death i assumed (ring out)? was this a difficult setup?

mad kat jun,
sup man, hopefully you fools made it back to az ok. just curious, after playing mdj in t4, are you inspired to try harder and acheive his level, or are you depressed that it might be too high a level to achieve? haha just playing..he was hella good though huh? say sup to ian if you see him around.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

shockwave - haha, yeah i got my ass beat pretty bad. i think EC4 was kind of the end for me, until the say what big tourny is up next. i had not played tekken 4 for like a month before this tourny, but i dont think anyone can achieve the level of mdj. his knowledge was amazing. i think he showed how great the game can be, i think if i do play, im going to pick up nina or bob. cause Tom is my hero and mdj's bob was STUUPID!!

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

I kind of interchanged the word admission with entry fee. I was actually talking about entry. Sorry for the confusion.

Money can be a great motivator. I don't hear much about it when it comes to VFDC tournaments... actually I haven't heard of it at all. I've only seen competition for competition's sake - be it E3s, NYGs, or Toronto. I don't need money to compete. I went to EC4 just to see everyone I know and to fight against people I hadn't met in hopes for new experiences.

It looks like we're gearing up for regular skill building get-togethers here in LA. I imagine anyone's invited. Check this board (Jamboree) for details. Maybe tournaments will follow.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Tom,

Hey, it's Bryan (I took 3rd at the tournament saturday with Akira). I wanted to say thanks for putting on the tournament and having VF4. Actually, I met you a few years ago when you came to my Judo class at LACC with Alex. I was friends with Varujan, and after class the 4 of us and my friend Richard went back to his room to play Tekken Tag and a LITTLE VF3tb. I remeber you used Akira then as well. I wasn't sure you'd remember at the tournament, so I didn't say anything (you seemed pretty busy).

Anyway, I had fun, and was glad to get the chance to fight with my friends and the Korean guys, as well as try to represent the VF scene.

All this talk made me want to bring up a question that I've been wanting to ask, and I think many people here wonder about. It seems like a lot of people are taking the attitude that the VF community didn't come out like they should have for the tournament, and that's valid, I guess. But to be honest, out of all the people in So Cal that I know that SERIOUSLY play VF4, over half were there. It's that small. With regards to people coming from out of town, I think that people in No Cal and other places were waiting to see if each other would show up, basically. Since no one said early on that they were definately coming from out of town (aside from florida, who backed out), I think that sent a vibe like it wasn't going to be well attended, and most shouldn't bother. Even our big events like E3 and NYG usually only draw about 30 people from all over the country.

Anyway, here's my question: Why don't more people, Tekken players specifically, play VF?

When I watched you in the tournament, I saw that you had played the game a little, and continued to practice Akira's 3 hit combos etc. With some practice, you could get really good, and could enjoy a whole new game/scene. You were one of the few tekken players who decided to take a crack at it just for fun. I'm sure you didn't think you's win, and you knew that that wasn't the point; I like that.

People have debated this a lot here and at other forums, without a whole lot of intelligent discussion, I think. Now we have a chance to hear from some of the US's best Tekken players. If just 10 more Tekken players had taken your attitude, the tourney could have been twice as big.

I eventually got tired of pleading with people to play VF in LA (ask Varujan, Alex, Johanna, I used to twist their arms at arcades!). It just seemed like I was making an ass out of myself, talking to people about shit they weren't into, trying to convert them. I felt like some kind of Anime Otaku or something "dude, it's really fun! You should get into it, we're having a gathering at my house tomorrow, they'll just be 3 other guys, maybe 4, but it's cool. You can use a D-pad if you want..."

Anyway, I's like to hear what the Tekken players think. More VF people could have come, but more Tekken people could play VF, too.

Spotlite

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

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When I watched you in the tournament, I saw that you had played the game a little, and continued to practice Akira's 3 hit combos etc.

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This means my first match was with tomhilfiger ("an Akira I hadn't met before"). I'm so observant sometimes /versus/images/icons/blush.gif . Good game, Tom.

In concordance with Spotlite's viewpoints - I hope to see more T4 players give VF a try.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Well, this thread was quite interesting for me, and here are my thoughts. I can't say I speak for every VFer in the U.S. (indeed I am not even in the U.S. any more), but I am confident my thoughts reflect a significant portion of the VF population.

It's not about what DRE said exactly--about VF players not bothering with EC4 because it is primarily a Tekken tournament--but it is related. Very simply, what the hell is EC4? Who is organizing it? Why should I attend? The first thing I thought when I saw EC4 being advertised was...who cares?

Ever since VF3, the VF community in the U.S. has been very small, tight, and a little incestuous. Traditions form, and the players that have been in this community for years tend to stick to their own. For VF3 and VF4, NYG has become the U.S.'s version of Beat Tribe. NYG is our tournament, and any serious VFer would at least think about attending.

To get people to attend a non-traditional tournament, it must have some sort of a gimmick or else risk a low turnout or subpar competition. Take the E3 tournament for example. Although it can now probably be considered a traditional tournament for the VF community (or a West coast version of Beat Tribe), its success was ultimately tied to E3 itself. A lot of VF players enjoy playing other games, and so it made sense to combine the two together. Attending a VF tournament by itself may not be enough to get people to travel far distances, but if you couple it with a mega-videogame conference, then it just might be worth it (at least, this was my thinking when I decided to attend E3). It was also the only chance to get to play against players out of the U.S.

Now take EC4. What is the gimmick? What makes this tournament special? Why should VFers from Florida and New York attend? Sure, you have Mad Dog Jin, but who is he? I'm betting most VFers have never heard of him before this tournament. Yes, you have Bryan, Andy, and the rest of the SoCal group, but you get to play against them in E3 along with all that other competition. The San Francisco crew didn't even attend EC4.

VF4 at EC4 was doomed from the beginning because it didn't have that special gimmick to get people to take notice. Now, if you can get Shinz, Moonsuk--or someone we've actually heard of and would be excited to play against--to attend, I can guarantee you that a sizable portion of the hardcore community would participate (~30 or so?).

It takes years for a tradition to build up so that players would attend a tournament just for the sake of attending it. MOAT did it for VF2, NYG and E3 did it for VF3 and VF4. There's no reason why EC can't become a traditional VF tournament, but it takes some time and most importantly, it takes that extra angle to get lazy (and busy) VFers to sit up and say, "Damn, I've got to attend!"

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

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Anyway, here's my question: Why don't more people, Tekken players specifically, play VF?

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i can't speak for every1 but here are some of my reasons. originally i had planned to enter vf also. i am not that good, but i figured that a good amount of people of my skill level would have entered as well... so i figure at least vs. those bunch i'd have a chance (maybe). but when i got to ec4, there was only 12 people who entered, and from watching them play i realized i was way out of my league if i tried to enter. now with this being the case, something inside me told me to try anyway, but i already forked out $30 to enter tekken 4 and tekken tag (games i felt i had a much better chance in than vf). i was in socal already few days prior, and at the same time my money was running extremely low cuzz i needed all i had for whatever else we did or were gonna do outside of the ec4 tourney..plus i needed money to make it back home as well. some people would say "that's weak, you shoulda entered anyway". believe me, if the vf tourney was free, i would have entered like that.

also, if you look at the number of players who entered each tourney, not every tekken 4 player entered tekken tag, and it's safe to say a good amount of tekken 4 players knew enough of tekken tag to play decently i think. but yet, for whatever reason they didn't enter both. none of the US vf players entered any of the tekken tourneys either (i could be wrong though) so the "why diddnt tekken players play vf" can be flipped around as well.

back in the summer a big tourney was held for capcom games by srk.com. in that event i also entered 2 tourneys (super turbo and cvs2) but declined to enter mvc2. i did so for much of the same reason as in ec4, and alot of player in that event didn't enter all tourneys either.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
It's not about what DRE said exactly--about VF players not bothering with EC4 because it is primarily a Tekken tournament--but it is related. Very simply, what the hell is EC4? Who is organizing it? Why should I attend? The first thing I thought when I saw EC4 being advertised was...who cares?


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i guess that would be valid, but it didn't seem like much vfers were interested. i mean, i can't speak for others but how many from this board actually went to ec.com to inquire about the vf tournament? tom and them even logged on these boards to inform but yet, no 1 would get back to him on the tekken boards to get more info...and it seemed like people from the tekken boards would just go here to keep reminding players to at least check it. if vfers did log on to ec.com, they shoulda came back here to spread the word and the legitimacy of the event. i guess the prize money factor should've also been stressed--the other "gimmick" of you will to get people to show, but the total pot would all depend on actual number in entries.

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Now take EC4. What is the gimmick? What makes this tournament special? Why should VFers from Florida and New York attend? Sure, you have Mad Dog Jin, but who is he? I'm betting most VFers have never heard of him before this tournament. Yes, you have Bryan, Andy, and the rest of the SoCal group, but you get to play against them in E3 along with all that other competition.

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if international competition and the chance to win money isn't enough incentive, then what else can motivate you? yeah i'm sure it would've been great to get some1 like shinz over, but let's look at this realistically. this was 1st a tekken event becuase mdj was being invited for that and that's what ec.com is about--tekken. ec.com isn't sponsored by namco and most of the funds they come up with, they come up with on their own somehow. so basically they have to pay and house the international guest. if a large turnout had shown for vf, i'm almost positive an effort in the future to bring some1 like shinz would've been made. basically it boils down to the fact if there's enough interest, or if they can at least break even on costs, then they'll do it. ec.com(tekken) tries to bring the best for their respective game--the koreans, srk.com(capcom) brings the best for their respective game--japnse... i mean, you have to concetrate on your main draw 1st becuase of the costs. i would think that vfdc should be the 1's making an effort for something of this calibre (becuase vfdc's main focus is vf), assuming they want to play an international player that badly. it can be done if funds are raised and people are willing to put in the effort.

now about entering the tourney thing from far distances. in capcom, tekken, and soul calibur. i've seen and heard of people traveling for such events. some of these events don't even have international comp all the time (i think srk and ec tourneys are the only 1's that do and these dont occur more than twice a year). for the other tourneys that take place with many travellers attending, i'd say the money/prize factor is big though and the camaraderie and chance to kick it with rivals and friends alike is enough incentive.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

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if international competition and the chance to win money isn't enough incentive, then what else can motivate you?

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Maybe this is surprising to players of other games but I think many people are more interested in the level of competition than money. My only goal is to improve and from what I saw, not enough good players were planning on going so I didn't get a ticket. Also, from what I heard before all these reports, MDJ isn't that good in VF4 so that international comp angle doesn't work here.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

I think the keyword Ice-9 used is "incestuous." The word I used in past was "inbred." Means same thing, but I think the word "inbred" is more appropriate than his choice of word, although many people would prefer more euphemistic terms.

Given that, Ice-9 summed up the inbred/closed culture of the VF crowd nicely. I think as there are less and less hardcore arcade players, all the fighting game groups are becoming more and more of "insider" groups. But nowhere is this culture more prevalent than VF.

Given that there is practically no VF tourney of significance to begin with, (at least when compared to TK, SF, etc) you would think that announcement of a tourney, regardless of who or what, would spark interest, no? No, that's not how the VF culture works in the US. Ice-9 used a lot of euphemism to describe this culture, but at the end all these are the characteristics of an inbred/insular culture.

But given that, I rather have higher hope for a future EC VF tourney. You can clearly see the tourney changed the attitude of all the VFers who particpated. I am sure it also changed the thoughts of a lot of people who didn't go. I would imagine for a future tourney, most VFers from Cal would try to make it. (And rest assured people like me and Florida crew etc, would try to make it too.) Kudos to tomhilfiger and everyone who gave support.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Why don't we all complain about the skill of international guest after beating him first? You almost seem to imply Spotlite and others lost to MDJ because they all sucked even harder, and attempts to paint a radically different picture than the ones painted by the actual participants. And by your logic no one in Japan or Korea should care about international guests if "they are not that good." And I wonder why they even bother inviting small countries to olympics.

You just can't give up trying to paint a negative picture of the whole event. (Again, in marked contrast to the people who actually went there.)
You didn't go because you didn't want to. No need to endlessly trying justify oneself by putting down the effort of others. (I guess I don't need to endlessly interject either, but I couldn't help.)

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Since everyone here seems to have an opinion, I'll say mine.

EC4 was big for VF, I knew it and don't care if anyone else did. I looked at it as a GREAT opportunity to rob tekken of some potential players =P. The fact that MDJ was going to be there was great, but my sources had told me that he was average to below average at VF4(these were korean sources mind you). And so that led me to wonder who am I going to compete with? I was originally going to come to Southern California, go to EC4, and stay for a few extra days to play with the Socal guys. But unfortunately my finances were not in good enough shape to allow me to attend EC4 and also go to a more seasoned gathering just after in late November possibly. So all in all MDJ won, awesome.

My main reason for getting mad is not only did I not get my chance to try and convert Tekken players to VF's awesome gameplay, but I essentially let the tekken community down also for letting MDJ win both tournies at EC4. America was dominated by a Korean. Oh well, I guess we'll have to get them back when we go in December maybe =P. HaHa!

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

you have to understand that korean level of gameplay is WAY HIGHER than US. their local scrubs would prolly be top players here. the fact that mdj won the vf tourny and he is considered weak, wow...can you imagine their top player. cause in T4, mdj was fucking AMAZING. i wish a lot of players would have came, because mdj came into the VF tourny knowing he would win it.

i think EC4 was also big because why would tekken players convert to a game that only has 12 people show up for it. people go where the comp is. i think that hurt people's thoughts about VF. i think VF is a good game but i have no one to play against, same with SC2.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

Well, with all due respect to the so cal crew and MDJ himself, it would have been much tougher for MDJ to win the vf tourney if all the best players from East Coast and elsewhere showed up, to say the least. MDJ most likely had edge over so cal players by having played against more varied players. Imagine a Korean Tekken player who's not as good as MDJ. He would likely win if he join regional tourneys in the US. But winning EC4 tourney against all the best the US would have to offer would simply be mathematically more difficult for him

When I played VF2 in Korea, all the Korean VF players either kicked major ass OR suck. Very few players in between. Handful of the very best from NA could hang with the upper echelon Korean players, IMO. As far as Tekken goes, MDJ is proven to be the strongest, but I am sure a small number of top American TK players can hang with the upper echelon Korean players and dominate the average players. It's just that Korea has a lot more upper echelon Tekken players than the US. That would be true for VF4 too, although Japan would have more upper echelon VF4 players than any other country at the end of the day.

So in a nutshell, no, I don't think local scrubs in Korea would be top players here. Scrubs will be scrubs. But they have more competent players across the ocean. MDJ, while he may not be the top VF4 player, must have benefitted from the competition.

 

Re: EC4 results and comments

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if vfers did log on to ec.com, they shoulda came back here to spread the word and the legitimacy of the event. i guess the prize money factor should've also been stressed--the other "gimmick" of you will to get people to show, but the total pot would all depend on actual number in entries.

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Many of the best VFers in the U.S. work, and winning a couple hundred dollars is NOT incentive to fly or drive far distances to compete in a tournament. I blew that much in the first week that VF4 came out. (Also, if you stay overnight at a decent hotel, that's $60-$100; if you drive it's probably $20-$50 depending where you drove from; plane tickets will probably range $100-$200.)

Unless you're talking in the thousands, you can never make a VF tournament "legitimate" by offering prize money. Do you think Retired Kage joined Beat Tribe just to win an X-box?? No. NYG and E3 have no prizes to speak of yet they are successful.

It takes time, tradition, and support from a group of dedicated players to make a tournament successful. Or a gimmick if you're trying to get those started.

As for "international competition"...I think that's been covered. For those of us who've made the trip to Tokyo, playing against a Korean player no one's ever heard of and doesn't throw escape kinda pales in comparison to playing the likes of Kurita, Hakushon, Segaru, Muscles, PK Akira, etc. I think I'd much rather go play Hiro, Adam, or even the Florida crew (whom I haven't met yet).

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if a large turnout had shown for vf, i'm almost positive an effort in the future to bring some1 like shinz would've been made.

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Well, the better players in the U.S. (outside the tournament's region) won't go if there's nothing special about the tournament, and the tournament organizers won't arrange anything special without proven interest...seems like nothing's going to happen with that arrangement.

But, I don't think EC4 can ever break even by sponsoring someone to come over and play. The cost is too high, and the number of decent players in the U.S. too low. As you pointed out, only a community dedicated enough to bite the bullet and pay out can make it happen.

(Really though--why get one famous person to go to the U.S. when you can go to Tokyo and play many more? People should really save up and make the trip. $2,000 for everything including airfare would be more than enough, plus a comfortable safety margin as long as you don't plan to hang out in Ginza).