Elevation

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Shadowdean, Nov 16, 2000.

  1. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Question - do you feel that elevation was a positive addition to virtua fighter? I've heard some people just complain that it was for scrubs to make life easier. I, on the other hand, tend to think that it just adds another level of depth and "realism" to the game...what are your thoughts?
     
  2. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    I agree that it adds alot of depth,but it can be abused such as people only picking the roof top stage so they can nail you with large combos which can be a little to punishing. All in all I dig it though.

    Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin
     
  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    But do keep in mind that in EVERY STAGE, the matches still start at equilibrium. No player has any advantage over any other still at the start of the match, no matter the stage chosen. One has to setup for that advantage. For players taht are really into picking stages to suit the conditions for their strategy, it is up to the other player to pick up on what the likely strategy will be.

    I really like the addition of elevation in VF3. It added another factor to consider in the game, but it didn't override any of the mechanics of the game... Just altered them in some situations, but like I said in the above... It's up to the players to create those situations. On the Roofstage, both players begin fighting on the same level, and it isn't until angles gets into play when things shift. However, I think that for just about every character, being higher and lower both have their pros and cons... Some options for your character will be better on a higher elevation while other factors (for the same character) will become worse. I think there's a sort of equilibrium in the game about that.
     
  4. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    I've heard some people just complain that it was for scrubs to make life easier.

    which means that some non-scrubs complained then. As far as I know, from those so called non-scrubs I met in the US, I have not heard such complaint, at least not to the large degree.

    By the way, I do like the variations in stages. Though I prefer to fight on the flat ground, that has to do with the characters I use.
     
  5. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    But do keep in mind that in EVERY STAGE, the matches still start at equilibrium. No player has any advantage over any other still at the start of the match, no matter the stage chosen.

    This is just not true, flat out. How are you going to explain the differences on the Pai stage? Whether which side has an advantage or not, they start off in very different situations. (and uphill does not mean advantage).

    ...how about Kage's stage? With Lion on 2P, TWO f+P, P is enough to ring the other out. With Jeff on 2P, TWO knees and pickups are enough for ring out. Whether those sound viable or not, players on 1P side simplay cannot do the same.
     
  6. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Some options for your character will be better on a higher elevation while other factors (for the same character) will become worse. I think there's a sort of equilibrium in the game about that.

    What if TWO Kage players face on Pai's stage? What about TWO Jacky?
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Point taken. My bad. Thanks for the clarification.

    I think I was focusing purely on the "Elevation" aspect... I was limiting my scope of view to the elevation and not thinking of the distances on certain sides. So my statement that they are exactly at equilibrium was false.

    Thanks for bringing that into light.

    However, I do feel that the "advantages" given to certain sides in cases like that are opportunities that are almost specific in the opening moves of the match. In that case, I guess it's a sort of advantage for initiative... the "advantaged side" has an extra option, and the defending side still has an answer to that option. Also, the differences in applying those situations seem more character specific to me. I'm open to hearing what you have to say about this (as I'm sure you will, this is not the most thought out thing I've written hehe). But, the way i see it, different characters have generally known advantages towards certain sides... Kage is more likely to have a good option going for him if the ringout spot is behind him.

    I'll admit again, my statement that both sides are absolutely equal was wrong... Within the square the characters start, it is generally equal in elevation and that was what I meant... Of course, stages like the Cave or Kage's is going to have the variances they have and that will affect which side has more advantage to certain characters than others... but that is past the iniitial phase where displacement is decided. The factor of displacement advantage also has to do with which characters as I said above... In different ways...

    In Lion against Taka, the area to exploit (if you're going for SE combos) would be behind Lion's position prior to the SE. Kage would be behind him if you're the type to make use of SE or TFT.

    As for my comment on equilibrium... I must've forgotten that there are certainly certain elevations that are stronger for a character than the other... However, it is still up to the players to determine if that goes into effect, but that's besides the point... However, I guess we have to assume that both players are experts if not masters of their chosen characters to make a stronger example... and I probably neglect that too.

    Anyways, just feeding some (not thought out) input. Just spur of the moment response. Again, point well taken...

    While I'm taking an implication on wall combo/ringout issues, would anyone want to list which characters are best suited to floating, which characters are best suited for distance OTB combos, which characters are better suited for wall combos? Guess it's time to go drag on the old combo lists to see a general pattern in this hehehe.

    Hehe, I guess I could cop-out and say something like, to every offensive option there is a defensive option (I'm interested in being proven wrong in that though, like if there was an overwhelming offensive option) and because of this non-lack of a defensive option, the stages don't play that big of a deal in the beginning of the round (immediate beginning), but they do extend the result of a succesful displacement offense (an offense that carries the defensive end at least a bit far). And given that, the round begins with an equilibrium due to the fact that elevation is not an issue for the first moment until one character is moved to a height displacement, and the external design of the stage including RO areas and walls are not a factor until after the first series of sequences, if not the first sequence, determines the direction of the fight. Of course, that is a cop-out, but that is how I see it. However, having more to worry about can cause a lot of players to lose a psychological edge in the match, depending on the player I guess.

    Well, that's about as much as I could think up in a few minutes, but anything more would be too overbearing to read I guess (meaning the post would be way too long, more than it already is). Looking forward to your response though (recognizing your knowledge of the game, I'm always humbled to you, but constructive argument is always good so I like engaging in it).

    -Chanchai
     
  8. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    tried the jeff example, it worked. the lion one didn't even come close to RO, though. eh?

    a few stages are not exactly neutral. those examples prove only that, and the flow and ebb of a natural match with good intelligent players usually goes back and forth so often that it doesn't matter after the round begins. and this tiny balance is always going to differ from stage to stage and character to character. and i don't think anyone will ever even think to say, "he had help in winning the round because he was on the 2P side. bastard!".

    uphill can be good, don't you think? albiet in maybe rarer circumstances (TFT otb combos). and only the most extreme uphill terrain is going to affect the usual, basic bread and butter combos (knee, ss, pounce; knee, DEU, pounce, etc, etc, etc).

    from looking at the game with an artistic, engineering point of view i love the terrain differences. it's lovely.

    say shota...do you know if they reworked the block/hit stun formulae in tb over from ob, or left all the mechanics the same (save for giving taka the same one as everyone else) and just tinkered with the ex-co-re frame stats for individual moves?

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  9. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Hmm..maybe if the elevation affected more..like if you were standing and guarding, one person does a move that would hit high normally, and thus blocked; due to the elevation, it struck your mid section, and you would have to block mid in order to block it? I would like to see that built upon in the next virtua fighter.
     
  10. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    how completely random and fucked up it would be, then.

    try fighting a match on shun's raft, making it a point to stay on the edge of the boat and the raft. that's messed up. now, with your idea, imagine that for the entire match, and the entire ring, but worse.

    not fun.

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Don't you mean attacking and blocking Low, 'Dean? Blocking High is the same as blocking Mid.

    Hmm.. Shun raft matches would be annoying then... but aren't they already sometimes? Well, don't know about hit detection, but think there are issues of handling certain small collisions on Shun's raft... I've often ended up seeing odd things happen with moves and weird moments in combat... maybe it's just me?
     
  12. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    the lion one didn't even come close to RO, though. eh?

    More specifically, On Kage stage, Dodge away from the screen, f+P, P (stagger), d+K (2nd K won't hit). From here, f+P, P (stagger), d+K, K would ring out. Or...you can force the guessing game with f,f+PG and u/f+K for ringout too.

    uphill can be good, don't you think?

    In general, yes. My gripes about uphil are two things. Jacky's elbow-spinkick becomes less consistent. Lion's d+K, K becomes less consistent.

    do you know if they reworked the block/hit stun formulae in tb over from ob, or left all the mechanics the same

    I read an interview with Kaku that there are over 300 differences in TB over OB. One I know for sure is that they changed how buffered-in commands work. Remember Andy's head-jerk? I know that quite a few people in Japan were complaining about it when the TB first came out.
     
  13. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Hmm..maybe if the elevation affected more..like if you were standing and guarding, one person does a move that would hit high normally, and thus blocked

    Haha...this is actually what AM2 was thinking to implement for VF3. It went as far as in test version, but they realized that it would just confuse hell out of players, and decided NOT to implement it.
     
  14. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    That is a point of view - I would like it in that it forces your brain to process more and keep the matches a bit random which, gasp, can be fun!
     
  15. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Uhh..I think you get my Point chanchai....but to clarify, change the mid block to a low block to compinsate for the change in elevation...things like that....I would love to see that elevated...would give the game a longer life.
     
  16. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    I would like it in that it forces your brain to process more and keep the matches a bit random which, gasp, can be fun!

    dunno about that. You might first train your brain processing the current VF3 mechanics before you move on.

    I myself am not quite ready to move on yet, as if I don't get hit enough times as is.

    Sounds rude, but this is my honest opinion based on watching your gameplay, Josh.
     
  17. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    >I read an interview with Kaku that there are over 300 differences in TB over OB.

    i'm interested in knowing about the hit stun formula specifically. but with that number, if i had to guess, and also from comparing ob and tb frame stuff, i'd say they left it the same and messed around with the moves themselves (ie added two frames to the recovery time of kage's heelkick, etc).

    --
    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"
     
  18. nascarbryant

    nascarbryant Well-Known Member

    I liked it a lot espacially in terms of juggles.......according the position of your character you could preform juggles that normally wouldn't work on flat ground.......

    brumm,brumm,brumm,...........
     
  19. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Well, the rest of the world does not nessisarily have stay behind because you may find some minor glitch somewhere that allows for something to happen 1 out of a billion times. THe Game has aged, and I would think we would not be apposed for advancement. My skills, or lacktherofe; in virtua fighter make NO difference in my posting. I stated, from, my personal standpoint, of what I would think could be fun. Maybe, before you comment on josh, you should spend some more time as josh?? :)
     
  20. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

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