Encoding WMV Videos at "60fps"?

I am not sure if this is the right board - but al least it's not a media request so I am hoping to not get hate for this. I will try and keep it brief.

The site in another thread offering FT movies right now (http://axts10.web.infoseek.co.jp/sigure/sigure.html) has WMV files that are clearly displayed at full-motion "60fps" or rather, an effectively interlaced 29.97fps video showing 60 total fields per second ( I think).

For love nor money nor asking for advice form some real video heads, I cannot work out how to get videos to play back with the "60fps look" - my encoder software always encodes a file that has this smoothness of motion not in tact, even though the source files (typically DV AVIs) will still have the "60fps look", the converted result has it missing, no matter how much I mess with settings.

This is very frustrating for games that run at 60, like VF - for example I am soon posting the worls's first direct feed videos of OutRun2 for Xbox and ialthough they look incredible at full-res PAL WMV files, they'd look even better if this motion issue could be rectified, because the final WMV files make it look like a 30fps game.

I was beginning to question whether it was even possible to produce web-compatible files (i.e. not DVD MPEG2) as no IGN or Gamnespot videos seem to have the 60fps look... but then I saw the FT videos from the site above, in WMV format, and I REALLY, REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING to get these results.

As this is a community of media-obsessed gamers (much like myself) whose fave game is renown for its locked 60fps, I was hoping somebody here would have some suggestions. If so, I would really appreciate a reply/PM or better still, an email: editorial@kikizo.com

Surely this can't be as hard as it's seemed so far....

Help!

 

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adsega said:
I was beginning to question whether it was even possible to produce web-compatible files (i.e. not DVD MPEG2) as no IGN or Gamnespot videos seem to have the 60fps look... but then I saw the FT videos from the site above, in WMV format, and I REALLY, REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING to get these results.
Help!

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Sara-bou (site administrator)speaks English. So just ask->
http://www.as-net2.org/usr/ico-f/mkgif/mkgif.cgi?pdsa

 

Cool, that's straightforward enough, thanks! I did think to do that but assumed he probably would not speak English.

 

Well the thing is about capturing fomr the arcade is that it's 60fps straight up. I've do my vids in 60fps too if you check out the homestay nyc media thread. There are some examples.
I was going to post a guide on how to have a unofficial 60fps video but me being lazy i haven't yet.

I just want to confirm that's how you want it to look like btw. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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Jide said:
I was going to post a guide on how to have a unofficial 60fps video but me being lazy i haven't yet.

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stop being lazy! some of us would love to know how you do it. Share the knowledge dawg! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Jide said:

Well the thing is about capturing fomr the arcade is that it's 60fps straight up.

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Yeah, but how is that different to capturing footage from a console game that is also 60fps? As far as I am aware there is no difference - it's all 29.97 (assuming NTSC not PAL) frames per second, but games like VF that gamers consider to be "60fps" are 59.94 fields into 29.97 frames I think.

Anyway like I susspect, it is the encoding stage that messes this up. If I capture footage of an Xbox game that runs at "60fps" like OutRun2 onto DV tape and then capture to get a DV AVI file and view it on the PC, it still "looks like 60fps". If I encode that file into WMV/MPG/MPEG2/QT/anything with this software with the exact settings of the DVAVI file in terms fo resolution, fields, framerate (29.97 or 25 for NTSC/PAL) then the resulting file (eg WMV) LOOKS like what gamers would say "30fps" and not "60fps".

I really need to know how to solve this!! /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif What do you use to encode??

 

Hope this doesn't sound rude, but the only English text I can see apart from mine at that page now is from Sara bou and I can't really tell if it's meant in reply to my post or not...?

http://www.as-net2.org/usr/ico-f/mkgif/mkgif.cgi?pdsa

I feel like a moron not knowing how to use that board properly...!

 

hi adam, the thing is, unless you are running outrun2 at progresive scan (a real 60 solid frames) in to say a apple mac with a componant YUV input (thats pal progresive) you will not capture the 60frames!!!

as youve said, u are recording it on to a miniDV camcorder right???

a pal one records at 25 frames, and if u was using that while the game was running at 60hz mode, you would of gotten flicker (like when u see pc's on tv)

also the windows9 codec may not give you the option of encoding at what ever rate, maybe its automatic so if its a pal file it will keep it at pal frame rate!

anyways really its neather here or there when it comes to recording 60frames, even in the arcade unless VF is running on proper monitor that displays 60 frames (mid res 640-480) you will only get raster scanlines at 60feilds!!!

just encode the miniDV tape at 25 if its pal or 29.97 if its ntsc, and just have the resolution set to 576by700 for pall or 480-700 for ntsc, then its basicly still frame and resalution acurate!

 

Hi Hatim, thanks for the input.

I hear pretty much all of what you are saying. What you suggest is the way I have been encoding all the videos lately (just encode to 29.97 if NTSC and 25 if PAL, at same rez, etc)

But what I just can't get past is this:

Even though the OutRun2 caps (which you are right are captured onto miniDV - in pure PAL not 60hz otherwise it wouldn't go onto tape at all) are PAL DV 25FPS, they are still showing 50 fields when viewed on either the deck or when you capture it onto PC and then watch the resulting AVI files. That is why they still have the "50/60fps look", even though it is obviousy really 25fps PAL - just like any "50/60fps" game runnign on any TV screen. (I am assuming that we can still refer to a game that's 60fps as 60fps even though in PAL land it's 50fps - you know what I mean!)

The mystery here is that when I play DV AVI files back which are 25 frames, they DO have the "50fps look". And when encoded, they no longer have the "50fps look". The fact that the "50fps look" is still in tact AFTER the video is captured proves that that key motion/interlacing data has not been lost at the capture stage. It is lost in the resulting WMV file after ENCODING.

I can edit/overlay etc in Premiere and put out again as DV AVI with all same properties as source AVI and the "50/60fps look" is still in tact. Only after encoding is it lost. I know we're dealing with 25/29.97 frames here and not pure 60 but I think the fact is that cos they're interlaced they still have the "50/60fps look" and this is what I can't work out how to keep post-encoding.

Gavin M emailed me earlier with a potential suggestion so I'll give him a ring asap to discuss. (Cheers Gav)

Again thanks for your input Hatim, do let me know if you have anything to add after yet another long Doree rant? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
adsega said:

Hope this doesn't sound rude, but the only English text I can see apart from mine at that page now is from Sara bou and I can't really tell if it's meant in reply to my post or not...?

http://www.as-net2.org/usr/ico-f/mkgif/mkgif.cgi?pdsa

I feel like a moron not knowing how to use that board properly...!

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't I tell you that Sarah-bou will reply to you. So no need to be upset anymore!! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

ahh, the thing is, remember on pcs (monitors) they display solid frames! so thats why you thinking it looks good, they are not real frames but basicly just interpolated fields in to frames!

kinda like what hi-end dvd players do for "progressive scan"

im sure you use firewire with your camcorder, so why dont u just make .AVI files??? i think it will be res acurate.

btw, im not hatim (prince) im james brown, we met ages ago, went to that nintendo/cake thing after seeing vfEVO in heathrow

 

Ah sorry mate, all these damn nicknames... I should've known Hatim was Prince.

Anyway... just to contradict once more (not contradict really, more like stay stubborn) -- if you take the "PC monitor" theory out of the equation then I would still point out that the DV captured footage plays back from tape via AV cables onto any TV with the motion in tact. Or on the DVcamera's screen for that matter.

However this, as always suspected, is a fields>frames issue and the finished WMV does indeed need to be 60pure, as many have now pointed out including sara-bou and also Gav M when I spoke to him earlier, my main problem was what software will do this effectively as Premiere 7 and Procoder do not, but now I have two separate choices to look at, so thanks to everyone who helped.

With any luck those OutRun2 vids will be 60fps when they go live! Or is that 50? ;-)

Cheers
Adam

 

Since I haven't seen this mentioned yet, I'll clear up why it looks different on a TV versus a Computer monitor, and why you don't get the '60 Hz' look.

Well, just to start with, if you're using PAL, best you'll get is 50 Hz, no more. NTSC will get you 60.

Now, for the whole 30/60 thing...In order to get a decent resolution image onto a TV screen, there's some chicanery going on behind the scenes that you don't know about. In reality, a TV plays 60Hz, or 60 Frames Per Second. How this is accomplished is by Scan-line-interleaving.

I don't know why, but each frame that the television draws contains only half of the vertical lines. I'm not sure why it's only the vertical lines, and not horizontal, but that's the way it works. Since the vertical resolution on each 'pixel' of a television is kinda fuzzy, you never actually see these lines.

It's done this way to conserve on bandwidth, and to provide a higher-resolution image over a limited connection. You see, with television (both RF transmitted and Cable-lines), there is only a limited amount of space available to transmit over. If the television station were to send an entire frame, full lines and everything, through the air, they would have to do so at the cost of reduced image size. Each frame consumes a certain amount of bandwidth, and this value is fixed.

To increase the size of the image, they just took out half of the vertical lines. Then, they send the other set of lines, for the next frame. For example:

Frame 1 of your game:
All of the odd numbered vertical lines are sent to the television, and the even ones are discarded.
Frame 2:
All of the even numbered lines are sent now, and the odd ones discarded.

On the recieving end, the first frame is shown, and then when the second one is recieved, the first one is already 'fading' off of the screen. Then, frame 3 is recieved, displayed, and frame 2 fades off. This all happens at a very rapid 60FPS, so you never actually see it.

Now, for the whole 30FPS deal.

On a PC, you can't display half an image. A PC monitor's refresh rate is much higher than a TV, and as a consequence, the pixels don't 'hold' their colors for as long. If you were to use the same format a TV does, you would have very prominent horizontal lines across the screen, as well as making any text very difficult to read.

To display on a PC monitor, what is effectively happening is that every pair of frames are combined. For example:

Frame 1 on PC screen: Frame 1 + Frame 2 from NTSC source
Frame 2 on PC screen: Frame 3 + Frame 4 from NTSC source.

Now, it doesn't take long to see what's happening here: The PC is displaying at half of the speed, in order to maintain resolution.

One trick that they use is to interleave the frames in sequential order, IE: 1+2,2+3,3+4. For this, you would use some kind of math formula to smooth out the transition between frames, because with cases of high motion, you would have very significant tearing of the screen. Just imagine what would happen if you had an object that crossed the screen space in 2 frames. In the first frame, it would be on the left side of the screen, and in the second, it would be on the right. Now, if you put these frames up and interleave them together, you'll get an ugly, exploded effect almost.

In short: You're not going to get the 60FPS look on a PC, at least, not a perfect one. What you should look into is a capture program that can interleave frames, and filter them.

 

60fps tutorial coming soon for those who would like it
/versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif