enter(ing) the flamingo

Discussion in 'Sarah' started by shinryu_returns, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    So I'm not sure if anyone's explicitly broken down your options for getting into flamingo in final showdown and what your options from any given entry are on block/hit; I'm sure this is probably going to be old news for the Sarah vets but the new players may find it useful and if nothing else it'll get things down in one place. For this first part I'm going to just discuss attacks into flamingo; I'm not as skilled at using the feints/cancels and it's harder to discuss options since the frame advantage isn't really "advantage.: So:

    Attacks with entries to flamingo and block advantage/hit advantage:

    ppp8k -6/0/+4
    BT k+g: -2/+3/+6
    3pk +2/+5/+8
    6p4k -3/+3/+6
    p+k +2/+4/+8
    4p+k +4/+8/+10
    4k +4/+6/+10*
    8k +2/+6/+10
    1k+gk -2/+5/+9
    k+gk: +3/+4/+10

    *4k requires some special discussion; as it has multiple active frames, if you can connect late in the animation at the tip of the move you can add up to +2 advantage. At even a slight distance you can easily be at +5 or better on block. This is is very, very exploitable, as you will see below.

    Generally, you want to know what your options are on a given advantage situation. +4 or better is where Sarah is pretty definitely in control of the situation; +5 is even better. +8 is a very bad situation for the opponent, unsurprisingly. Options basically build on one another: if it's a good idea at +1, it's still good at +3, especially as your opponent has more to worry about.

    -2 or less: Sarah is pretty screwed. Typically, I prefer not to use entries with this level of disadvantage. Your major options are:

    FL 4p+k+g escape: Recommended until they start to punish:

    FL 8k: Flipkick to hopefully overpower a slow punish. Prayer

    FL p+k: For the reflexive low puncher. It's a guess, but safer than 8k

    FL 4k: A very slow option at 20 frames, but half circular, crushes 2p. If your opponent freezes up when presented with flamingo or goes to 2p or step, this isn't a bad play, much better at higher advantage however.

    -1 to 0: Typically this shouldn't happen either. However, since Sarah's FL P and FL K are 11 frames, you should generally be able to beat most 12 frame attacks here. Difficulty here is 2p, which will eat both options alive. Typically you want to mix between escaping and tossing out a FL P or FL K here, I think. Options are as above, plus

    FL P: Leads into a very nasty high-low-throw mixup if you can reliably hit the 2kkk followup. Goes to normal stance. FL P does not give advantage on block (-1) but you can buffer in a 33p to keep up pressure/catch steps on one side.

    FL K: Back to flamingo with a +4 on block, +5 on hit, and a ridiculous +12 on CH. Or a followup into the string and mid/low mixup. I like to toss this out at any advantage, honestly, but here it's arguably your best option.

    +1 to +3: Your strongest options are not yet safely available. However, 3p opens up at +1 and at +2 or better 8k should beat almost any mid or low retaliation (in particular 2p). The only real new option here is 3p:

    3p: As the standard 3p chop from normal, with same followups. The chop is half-circular (opposite of FL 4k and 1K) so you have a quasi-safe mixup against steps. On hit, K combos and back into flamingo at +5 (read: fucked-land for the opponent); on block, P is a mid followup which gives some pressure to mix with throw and also gives the opponent the urge to stand and take the K followup back into Flamingo. I am probably too predictable with the K and I suspect I get ducked and pay for that more than I should, so mix this guy up. It's still a fabulous option at +1 or better and is good damage, good advantage.

    +4: Now we are in good shape. +4 opens up the FL 6k mid knee attack, which will stop 2p cold:

    FL 6K: This is a 16 frame knee attack that hits mid. The followup is a delayable full circular that's -13 on block (ow); the knee itself is -5/-2, so safe if not spectacular. However, the threat of the full circular followup makes a throw an attractive option. Alternatively, buffer in at 1K+G to beat fuzzy and get back to flamingo.

    +5 to +6: We now enter the promised land of Flamingo, where the terrifying power of the stance is truly manifested. Seriously. At +5, you can force an (almost) true nitaku for mid/low and scary damage. Unfortunately, both FL 3k and FL 2k are linear, but the threat of them then opens up FL 4k, FL k+g, and of course 3p. Both options are sadly at -7 on block, so you're in a true nitaku after that; plan accordingly. That having been said, your new tools of destruction are:

    FL 3K: Mid kick, crumples on any hit. Standard combo after that for ease is 3p+k, FL k, FL 8k for around 70 aggregate damage (you may have to omit the FL K on heavier characters). There are better combos but this is go-to.

    FL 2K. The low kick into p+g hit throw. Learn, live, love. Stylish lows into 52 damage are hard to come by.

    +7 or better: Like +5, but your other options just get safer.

    +7:

    FL k+g: A full circular high with a k followup that launches. Pretty sure this combos on counter, may? combo on normal but need to confirm. In any case, if you're catching a step, you can launch for a good 70-90 damage. This makes the mixup from +5 viable again. Of course, the mixup then makes this more safe to use at +5 or better...

    FL 6k+g: The launcher variation from FL; if they're dumb and press a button they go for a ride. If they block they get you at -15, so I prefer to use FL 3k/ FL 2k, honestly. But it is usable at this advantage. Has a bit of evasion so it *might* be safe against p at less advantage, unsure.

    +8: FL 4k is now safe against 12 frame attacks. Enjoy.

    There are odder options from FL (3k+g, 2k+g, and Step), but in general if you're playing an aggressive Sarah you can typically fall back on these options. Your primary main objective is to get in at +4 or better (preferably +5), where you have the strong mixup options of FL K or 3p, FL k+g, and either FL 6k (at +4) or the FL 3k and FL 2k mixup at +5 or better. If you can get in at better than +5 that is icing on the cake, honestly.

    Next post: how to get in at +4 or better.

    Next post: how to do that.
     
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  2. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    So, now you know what to do in FL based on how you get in given the frame advantage. This is just an addendum to illustrate how to best exploit certain entries for maximum advantage.

    4k: This is almost certainly the best entry into FL. What makes it so good is that it has good range and 4 active frames, meaning that if you hit near the end of the attack you can easily add +1 to +3 to the advantage you would expect. Now, it's difficult to know exactly how much better off you are than you would otherwise be, but if you're not point-blank you can usually guess +1 at least (so make the advantages +5/+9/+11). Furthermore, now your opponent has to guess how much better off you are, which he's going to be leery to do given your options at +5. So, unless you're throwing this right in their face, you can usually proceed with FL 3k/FL 2k mixup without fear. Also, should net you a stagger on a crouching opponent, which I am fairly certain gives you a free FL 3k, possibly a free FL 6K+G.

    P+K: Sarah's sabaki entry. The time to use this is at moderate advantage against an aggressively counterattacking player, or at a very slight (no more than -2) disadvantage. Do not abuse against a 2p masher, as it loses to 2p. Also, I think (need to confirm) that the advantage may drop to +2 on a successful sabaki. Nonetheless, this will encourage an opponent to possibly stick fewer things out.

    8k: Basically most useful for crushing 2p or other lows, though you really need to be point blank for this to work. Will get you the stagger and combo if it works, though. Not so good on block and lacks the range of 4k, so only use it if you really anticipate a low or you're at +5 and you can afford to toss it out.

    1k+gk; Opens low, don't think this is a natural combo on normal hit, unfortunately. I like to toss it out at +3 or better, since it gives a true low mixup along with 6p.

    Other entries: 4p+k is great frames on entry but situational, since it's 22 frames; mostly useful in combos, honestly, but you can toss it out once in a while at range. 3pk is very go to for me, anywhere you can p, you can 3pk. I am probably too predictable with this, and there's really no excuse: with the p followup the mid/throw mixup needs to be part of using this. Don't actually like most of the other options to get in: 6p3k should combo on hit but +3 isn't great and -3 on block really, really isn't great. BT k+g is a good full circular but otherwise nothing special.

    I'd like to develop some applications for the cancels into flamingo (I've seen japanese video of using 4k+g(g) to great effect) and I'd really like to figure out how to incorporate step (if for no other reason than to be able to catch throw). If you all have tech in that regard or suggestions about the info I've posted I'd love to hear it.
     
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  3. BeastEG

    BeastEG Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    BeastyEG
    First, shinryu this is an incredible guide and I wanted to thank you for starting it off!

    I was going to say I've been messing around with the cancels into FL (need to check my frame data) but I thought I'd share some things I've been working on that have worked so far (when I hit them properly.)

    1) [9][K]+[G],[K],[K]~[G]

    Since it is 2 mid attacks followed by a high full circular, it's actually a very powerful chain to pressure with. The first attack goes over lows so if you are facing a low spammer (i.e. Lion, Shun, etc.) This can be a powerful solution since it moves forward. Also, the first two hits are a natural combo, so it's pretty safe to go through the entire thing. The only drawback is that it is slow, so make sure you are starting it from a bit of a distance so you can take advantage of the forward movement. The cancel is on the full circular and is actually pretty hard to react to since Sarah gets into FL quickly. At that point, it's more about reading your opponent with your FL options but I add more once I research it a bit more. Caution is a must if you intent on letting the last [K] in the chain rock as it's unsafe on block or crouch.

    Favorite Followups once in FL

    a)[K],[K] then [2][K] -> [P]+[G]
    b)[P], [2][K] -> [K] -> [K] into combo (the timing on this is hard and I'm still getting used to it, but when I've hit it, it's really brutal)
    c) Step into throw if fighting turtle
    d) [2][K] -> [P]+[G]

    2) [3][K],[K]~[G]

    This thing is really awesome since it is a single fast mid hit so if use the [3][P],[K] chain a lot, it's a good complement. One downside is the full chain is unsafe on block(I think it's -15 on block) . A general situation I'll find is that a lot of people will try to counter the [3][P],[K] chain with a low attack ( [2][P] or [2][K] ) since the [K] of the [3][P],[K] chain is a high hit. Thus, when I do [3][K],[K]~[G], I just do the FL [P]+[K] Sabaki and then go into a sweet, sweet combo. It may be me, but whenever I hit this Sabaki, I have to concentrate on doing a combo as opposed to fist pumping.

    Favorite Followups once in FL

    a)[K],[K] then [2][K] -> [P]+[G]
    b)[P], [2][K] -> [K] -> [K] into combo (the timing on this is hard and I'm still getting used to it, but when I've hit it, it's really brutal)
    c) [3][K] for crumple combo
    d) [P]+[K] Sabaki

    [4][K]+[G]~[G]

    As mentioned before, this can be a powerful tool since getting a CH with [4][K]+[G] can lead into a damaging combo, it sets up a good mix up with the cancel. I find it works best on Oki, especially against people who are afraid to step. Most people have a natural reaction to not let go of [G] until they have confirmation of a successful block, so you get a kind of soft frame advantage. To be honest, once I've successfully gone into FL with this entrance, it's usually more a matter of the opponent picking the correct option against the option I throw out at them more than anything else, but since the mixup game favors Sarah when she is in FL, just go with your best instinct.

    Hope that helps and tell me if I'm off my rocker!
     
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  4. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    Thanks, FG! Good input, though I think 3kk is actually really unsafe on block (at -15 according to the command list), though the first kick is only -5. So I would be leery about completing the string except to keep people honest. Also, I'm still not really sure about 9k+g just since it's so slow, although you're completely right about the low crush ability being awesome. I will play with it more. I need to see how much disadvantage you can still beat 2p at with it; 8k+g for example is almost guaranteed to beat 2p, but I'm not sure at what point you're airborne in 9k+g. If it crushes at say -4 to -6 then I think it's got serious potential for reverse nitaku. Certainly it's good at range (if the opponent respects 66k or FS K). And FL p2kkk is a vicious option, but I also don't hit it quite reliably enough yet and I run into enough people who 2p at FL that i don't use FL P much anyway.

    Of the cancels I think the 4k+g cancel has the most opportunity to be exploited. As you pointed it out it's a great way to play okizeme games (have seen some japanese players exploit this to great effect). I suspect it may be a good play at midrange in general (mix between say 4k+g, 4k+g(g) into either FL k+g to catch a step or FL 2k to hit low, maybe even into step/catch throw if they freeze up). I sort of think that the 6p+k3pk(g) blizzard kick cancel might be ok as well but I'm very nervous about being in someone's face at disadvantage (same reason I don't use 3kk(g) more, actually), but that's more personal preference for having "hard" frame advantage.

    In any case, we need to try to get some frames in terms of the time the cancels actually take so we can do some better analysis. I am going to try some things possibly this evening when I get home, and I've also pinged the guy who did the great Brad stance entry thread to see if he has similar data for Sarah. I'd really like to know how long each cancel takes, how long it takes to get into step, etc. I will start another thread to get into all that.

    Next post here: what you should do against FL! good to know, and good to know what your opponent (if he's smart) should be thinking)
     
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  5. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    Ok, so you're playing a mirror match or (gasp) another character, and/or you'd like to be in your opponent's head a little when you land a flamingo starter. What's the optimal reaction to seeing Sarah in flamingo? If your opponent knows the matchup, here's my two cents on what they (or you) should be thinking:

    -2 or worse: Really, your opponent can either choose to throw or to try and nail you; it's a bit of a forced reverse nitaku for Sarah. I believe throw will beat a 4p+k+g escape, but I don't know if there are many (if any) attacks that beat 4p+k+g at any reasonable disadvantage. All things considered, he should probably attack, you should probably escape.

    -1 to +3: In this situation, your opponent can always pick 2p and you have to specifically guess an anti-2p option to stop it. Back in the day FL K was ex-high and there was much rejoicing, but now it's either FL p+k or FL 4k, basically. So your opponent's strongest options are probably to either evade or 2p at this point if he's defensively minded. He does have to be a bit cagey in the evade as 3p will catch him as will FL 4k if he picks the wrong side, and FL 4k will also crush 2p. This suggests that FL 4k should be a strong option against a smart player. If he attacks back he's going to beat FL 4k, of course, so you should certainly toss out the 3p or FL k to keep him honest. All things considered, then, 3p or FL 4k are probably best options at a minimal advantage.

    +4 or better: 2p ceases to be a good option at this point, and especially given the variable frame advantage on your 4k entry it becomes extremely risky; if you're at +4 your FL 6k will win but FL 3k loses, but if you're at +5 he gets to be counterhit by FL 3k and bye bye 80 damage, or counterhit FL 2k p+g for 60 odd. So smart players should not 2p here.

    What should happen? All things being equal, a smart player should probably either evade or guard high. Since they can't be thrown from FL, guarding high stops the combo starters (FL 3k and FL k+gk) safely. While FL 2k can do good damage with the p+g followup, it's certainly less than a combo off FL 3k can do and if you miss the p+g you're at disadvantage. Evading shuts down the FL 3k/2k mixup entirely, but of course loses badly to FL k+g. With these responses in mind, it suggests your optimal mixup is probably between FL k+g and FL 2k. If they start ducking, then 3k can start coming out. I need to experiment more with FL p and FL 6k here; I suspect that FL 6kk might be quick enough to stop a lot of retaliation on evasion of FL 6k, and of course ticking into throw from FL p or FL 6k should be a strong tactic (that I need to use more of).

    So that's really the major (if conservative) options against flamingo and what I think are best responses given them. Of course if your opponent is a dipshit and always goes for 2p then you might as well sabaki into whatever all day. Not sure if I have much more to say here until I can start working out the cancels (I'm really thinking that cancels like 3kk(g) FL k or p could be very strong stuff, as that establishes the all important +4 or +5 situation and I doubt people want to try to interrupt between 3kk)). FGBeast's suggestions were quite good in this regard as well, so please feel free to follow his example and add your own thoughts at this stage.

    Mega Sarah guide/dissertation in the works at some point. Think I'm going to start dissecting the slide next; it's actually a potent option and I think could lead to a great mixup at midrange with 4k+g(g) cancels in particular. Would love your guys' input on any and all of this of course.
     
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  6. sandwraith

    sandwraith Member

    I saw this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIOjZJpraYo&feature=relmfu

    Watch the Sarah cancel at 2:05 at the utilization of Storm Combination Cancel. I've no idea if the pay off is worth the risk especially if you're up against more aggressive players of quick pokers like Goh, Akira or Lion.
     
  7. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the video, sandwraith! I don't get to watch enough match videos, I'll check it out later.

    Had a little time to play with cancels last night and I don't think any of them are safe; I am not able to nail down to the frame and it's possible that I may not be getting fastest cancel, but it looks like you're in the neighborhood of -9 or so from 3kk(g), 4k+g(g), and possibly worse from 6p+kpk(g). Essentially the only thing I couldn't get to interrupt FL k after a cancel from her neutral stance as a counter was 9k+g, so these are definitely mindgames, not hard advantages. I also could not get the instant FL cancel from pk(g) to execute, don't think it was me; you can throw a freaky fast looking 4k+g from pk(g) but it's not skipping frames or anything, it just looks quick. Interesting fake, maybe?

    In any case, though, if your opponent doesn't commit to the counter he may be in serious danger of getting countered by the FL K after a cancel. In particular, he really has to call your bluff against 4k+g almost as soon as you start the attack and I don't think a lot of people are quite that fast. I do still think FL K and/or FL P/3P are the attacks of choice after a cancel. As an illustration, I recorded and mixed between 4k+g and 4k+g(g) FL k, and it's very hard to do the right thing on reaction. This is particularly strong against evades, as if they commit to the evade against an expected 4k+g I think they have to block the FL K or P; I couldn't duck out from the evade failure. There may be a more exotic way to get out of trouble there but I can't think of it.

    Similarly (and disappointingly) there does not seem to be a safe way into Step where Step P will interrupt anything. Even off counter 8k p+k+g at +10 frames the Step takes long enough that a p will generally interrupt. So you really have to use Step only as a mindgame. Fortunately, the cancel to the throws from Step seems to be very fast (still ~30 frames or so) but if you've got the opponent afraid to 2p you may get some mileage there, especially against people who like to evade.
     
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  8. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    So this video is a really good example of the cancel in action, actually. You can see it's totally a mindfuck move; FL 1k is like 22 frames on top of the cancel, so Aoi had like a million years to do something against it. But she's forced to respect the k ender since it's full circular mid and so she locks up and either expects a mid from flamingo or just locks up entirely, I think.

    That does suggest maybe FL 1k isn't a bad trick from the cancels as well. Against aggressive players, maybe not, but against aggressive players it may not be a good idea to cancel at all. If they want to eat a 6kk, well, I'm not about to stop them.
     
  9. KarnF91

    KarnF91 Active Member

    [3] [K] [K] is interesting to me. The first hit is +6 if you land a counter hit and there is quite a bit of time to enter the second [K] to cancel. I'm not really sure how to get a really good test with it for frame data. My testing shows that [4] [K] beats out 2P, nothing else beat the 2P spam I set the CPU to do on record command. It needs real world testing I think to determine it's true effectiveness.

    What I've been testing is the options off of [P] lately. I'd like an opinion on my conclusions.

    As we know [P] is +2 on block, +5 on NH and, +8 on CH. It can open up a ton of options, but what is interesting is what is available on block. If you are looking for FL entry you have, [6] [P] [4] [K], [3] [P] [K] and [P] [+] [K]. To a lesser extent you have [8] [K].

    [6] [P] [4] [K] : What is nice about this is it will hit people who 2P, or react with a P and most moves over 12 frames (I'm sure there are moves that will beat it because of their properties) The problem with this is if they block you are -3 on the entry into FL. I feel this is a good if you believe your opponent will attack after your [P]. But with the knock down with just the [K] after the elbow it might not be the best option.

    [3] [P] [K] : What is nice about this is at worst you are at +2 on entry. It will beat high and mid attacks. It's downside is 2P will beat it, which is where the previous move can help. I feel like this is one of her better entry moves because at worst you are at +2. Off a blocked [P] you are in FL with some frame advantage.

    [P] [+] [K] : Once again at worst you are at +2. What is nice is it will deflect high and mid [P] attacks from what I've seen. 2P will beat it. It's a good move overall, on CH +8, +4 on NH it speaks for itself.

    [8] [K] : If they try to 2P and you do this, you got a free launch and 90+ damage for it off a blocked [P] (I've gotten as high as 107). On block it's +2 if you get a CH +10, but that hasn't happened to me off of blocked [P]. The upside is huge, against lower and mid level players you'll destroy them. Higher level players they might not fall for this obviously.

    The key is to mix it up obviously. If you [P] then for [3] [P] [K] each time you'll pay for it. Seeing as [P] is a fundamental poke and is good for starting offense. You can get into Sarah's big source of mix ups and offense off a harmless blocked [P]. For me this knowledge has helped in practical experience a lot. I hope the information I've provided is useful, I know it's helped me out.

    I've been working on a beginners guide for Sarah, that would be going over a lot this stuff as well (including stuff on slide and all that.) I was going to ask the players on this board for their input as well. Seeing as you are making a guide for Sarah maybe we can pool our information and see what we have.

    EDIT: I nominated Shinryu for the Character Specialist since he's done a lot in terms of strategy. I was going to put my name forward but I've only done small amounts of stuff in terms of combos and some strategy. Also being a new player I don't feel like I have the experience for it.
     
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  10. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    Thanks, man! I wish there was someone more experienced posting here but I'd like to do what I can and certainly would like to collab on the newbie guide.

    As far as your thoughts off P I think they're solid. I honestly don't like 6p3k entry though; it's pretty weak in terms of frames and if they can duck the 3pk k they'll probably figure on ducking the 6p3k since I'm pretty sure 6pk knee is special mid now, so you can't keep them honest that way.

    In general I think you're safest alternating 3pk, p+k, and 8k overall, depending on their tendencies (3pk if they block, p+k if they like to abare, 8k if they duck). You may need to put in the occasional k+g as well if they are smart enough to step away from 3p reliably, but frequently 3p is good enough to catch most evades.

    I'd like to investigate 3kk(g) more myself. If you're +6 and the fastest cancel only gives you FL 4k against 2p then you're definitely at some disadvantage coming in. Can FL p or k beat a normal p? If not that suggests you're at least -1; if they can beat an elbow, at least -3.
     
  11. KarnF91

    KarnF91 Active Member

    I agree with 6P4K being weak, I don't find it optimal either. Having that mid off of blocked P does catch anyone trying to 2P, knowing you can get into FL from it is nice. If I get a hit with the elbow I go for the knock down with K. As I mentioned in my post, if you think they will 2P I see no reason not to use 8K. You get the stagger and you can launch for big damage. I need to test how fast you can shake out of it however. 3PK is by far the best because of the advantage it does give. It is nice know how many options she has off a P.

    I'll see if FL P or K can beat a normal P from 3KK (G). I'm not really sure what to think about the cancels yet. I guess if you are just out of range the first 3K can keep them out while you cancel. From there I'd have to think Sarah has the advantage over most of the cast. So maybe from that situation, that needs real world testing.

    Sometime in August I will have the primary part of my newbie guide done. That should have the basic stuff in it and some advanced stuff. I mainly want to keep it simple, to the things that I saw when I first started that helped me understand Sarah and the game in general.
     
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  12. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    So an interesting find last night screwing around in training mode: I was trying to figure out the maximum disadvantage where 8k will still crush 2p (as I kept going for 8k instead of 8k+g and taking a lot of p in the face) and it looks like it's -3 or better. Conveniently, this is the disadvantage on block for 3p, which means you can alternate between finishing 3pk or doing 3p(g)8k, which should dissuade people from trying to duck or 2p after the 3p after the exciting stagger combo hits a few times and thus giving you entry into FL or throw opportunities. Also, this should work off of k+g on block as well, though I haven't tested that to be certain. That should help keep people honest against k+gk, which I also find myself 2p'd out of more often than I'd like. It should also work out of a few things on hit and 6p+k3p on block; the latter may be useful as it's far safer than the k ender to the string. If people start getting ballsy you always have the option to finish or 44p.

    On a related note, this is making me think the strongest options from FL at 0-3+ (such as the 2+ from 3pk or 8k on block, say) really are to mix FL 4k and 3p rather than try to use FL K or FL P; 3p is quick enough to interrupt and catches steps one way, while FL 4k will crush 2p and catch evades the other way. Either leads to a decent situation on hit, but FL 4k on block almost requires you to guess backflip or FL K on block. FL K is still great since you can get +4 on block and have FL 6k options, but I think a lot of players are going to see you 3pk into 3pk a few times, think "time to 2p that shit", and eat 8k into a bad time for them.
     
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  13. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    This is in my opinion one of those cases where frame data doesn't tell the whole thing.
    [3][K][K] is a mid-mid string, meaning that opponent must respect the second kick. Its also next to impossible in my opinion to see in time whether she cancels the kick or not from the animation. If opponent respects the second kick, he must block high, which means you can essentially do almost any flamingo move at will (except maybe step).

    I think 3KK~G is a pretty good feint to go into flamingo because its mid mid. Opponent simply has to respect second hit enough for you to pull the feint off. Of course,if youre against a REALLY aggressive player or a spammer, you shouldnt try to use it too much.

    I have pulled off essentially 100% of [3][K][K]~[G] feints I've tried, even against really aggressive noobs. The first kick even staggers crouchers iirc?

    Having to respect the followup is a big thing. It allows you to use moves that should be punishable on paper and get away with it. Repeatedly.
     
    PurpGuy, Pai~Chun, Elite and 2 others like this.
  14. BeastEG

    BeastEG Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    BeastyEG
    [6][P]+[K],[P],[K]~[G] and [6][P]+[K],[3][P],[K]~[G] are actually very good options for pressuring as well.

    The the [6][P]+[K],[3][P],[K]~[G] cancel is powerful since the final [K] is a mid full circular meaning that someone has to block high. Also, if you hit the final hit, it's possible to get a full combo afterwards (although it's a bit of gamble since it is -13 on block.) More often than not, most people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between the two chains so for them it's a complete guess between a high or mid on the second punch and then whether it's a high or mid on the third hit.

    [6][P]+[K],[P],[K]~[G] is a bit safer but is completely comprised of high attacks so you have to be wary of your opponent ducking (and most likely [2][P]'ing.) If you mix the two chains together combined with mixing up [G] cancels or not, it can become very hard for the opponent to guard effectively.
     
    PurpGuy likes this.
  15. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    some small technical notes from playing with alternative entry options:

    1k+gk: virtually all of sarah's flamingo entries have multiple active frames that can improve their on-paper advantage; spaced properly, you can easily have +4 on block from p+k for example. it turns out 1kk+g actually has this property as well; while the 1k+g is always a fixed advantage, the second k can be from -2 to 0 on block (or +5 to +7 on hit). so it's quite possible to poke with 1kk+g at range and still be at even on block if you're hitting at the tip of the range.

    ppp8k: i've become more comfortable with the idea of coming it at disadvantage now that i understand the properties of FL 8/2p+k better. slight delays from -2 or -3 can eat a lot of retaliation alive. ppp8k arguably suck suck sucks on paper: a high (not even special high) that's -6 on block and only even on hit. however, it puts you at the perfect disadvantage to immediately FL 2/8p+k and counter-hit most linear retaliation or throw attempts. between that and 4p+k+g you could be very frustrating using ppp8k or ppp FS mixups, though i don't know what ppp8k whiffing on a low punch leaves you with.
     
    PurpGuy likes this.
  16. BeastEG

    BeastEG Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    BeastyEG
    Usually you eating a launcher against a good player in my experience :( but if used judiciously can be pretty sneaky.
     
    PurpGuy likes this.
  17. shinryu_returns

    shinryu_returns Well-Known Member

    so it looks like ppp8k vs. 2p leaves sarah effectively at -1, as i was able to counter a p with FL k but not FL 3p. so it's basically your standard -1 situation, alternate FL K or FL P with FL 4k or 4p+k+g out. that might not be the case against somebody with quick while standing moves though. should try against vanessa and see how that goes.
     
    PurpGuy likes this.

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