EVO Aoi vs. Akira balance question

I haven't had a chance to play EVO yet, but I have been following the info, and being an Aoi player I'm curious about how exactly her new ability to reverse everything changes her balance.. Specifically, take the example of Akira, who relies on the smallest and most predictable arsenal of strikes in the game. All of Akira's dangerous moves hit mid except the low back fist and standing palm. The only thing preventing Aoi from whoring her mid reversal against Akira in VF4 was the fact that you could guess right and still get nailed by something unreversible (body check, dblplm).

Now this is no longer a big deal, since Aoi reverses everything. The worst case scenario I can think of now if you guess wrong is getting hit by an LBF MC and then whatever followup can be nailed during the foot crumble... Sure, the standing palm is dangerous, but its effective range is short.. If Akira's dashing in from a distance, you know it's about 90% likely to be a mid.

All of this to say, if I were an Akira player, I'd be terrified every time I saw Aoi, and would have to rely on throws a lot, which is a bit of a handicap. How do Akira players deal with this?

And has Aoi, as a consequence of her newfound talents, become more popular and more widely used in competition, etc. ?

 

Speaking of Aoi in Evo, she has indeed the best

reversal game. As you mentioned, she can

reverse Shoulder ram, Double Palm.. everything Akira

can do, so it might be true that Akira gets intimidated

when playing againt Aoi.

In my opinion as one of Akira players , not at all.............

Whenever I have a chance or feel like doing, I don't

become hesitated to do the moves like double palm

, Shoulder ram, SDE just because she can reverse

them. The reason is the risk and reward ratio.

While her reversals don't do much damage, Akira's

move can easily take 70-80 point from opponent.

In fact, the real character that I become cautious about

its reversals is Akira. His sabaki can do

70-80 damage by the followup combos, which is more

intimidating for me than Aoi's less damaging

reversals.

 

I find reversing Aira's attacks pretty difficult with Aio actually, even when you know the attack should be a mid. His attacks excecute very fast, and if you fail you're set up for a world of pain.

 

Like Madagascar said, most of her reversals aren't that powerful anyway. As soon as you start buffering reversals after her moves, smart players will catch on and just delay their attacks and throws.

As far as I'm concerned, her new + is more dangerous to Akira because it sabakis all high/mid punches and elbows. I usually use her reversals/inashi when I recognize a string (or a very obvious move) being performed, but even against Akira's mid attacks, you can still guess (painfully) wrong. Reversing yoho isn't the same as reversing SDE, plus there's the threat of his catch throw. Overall she is stronger now, but abusing the reversals can only lead to trouble. Don't be afraid to attack!!!!

 

Yeah, most Aoi players would certainly not want to risk reversing Akira's various moves, as they might eat anyhwere from say 30 odd points, to possible half their life bar......ouch...

And some of the reversals are not even practical imo, like the body check reversal....so useful....

Most of Akira's move that have reversals added for them anyways are nearly all throw counterable, or p counterable, they basically have slow recovery.

It is probably better just to block a shrm, dblplm, or yoho, rather than risk eating one (as an MC probably too) instead of getting an 8+ advantage on your opponent.

If you like flash, go ahead though! /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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Also, reversals are not meant to be used as a primary tool for damage.

They are more like a deterent, something to force your opponent to mix up their game, like say:

1.) An Akira player has been using the dlbplm at least twice per round, sometimes even three.

2.) His next match is against an Aoi player.

3.) If the Aoi player has been watch the Akira players play, he (or she) might be able to predict when Akira might throw out a dblplm.

4.) If the player guesses right, they can take advantage of the situation and perform a reversal.

5.) Now the Akira player (should) is more hesitant to use the dblplm so much, as the potential for the Aoi player to recognize (and reverse) it, is alot higher.

- - - -

Realistically, no Aoi players try to reverse the non-traditional moves at first site...they wait until, a. they know when the player will throw any given move, or b. they are risky and attempt a reversal anyways.

- - - -

You are either gonna get like 50 points of damage tops with a reversal, or eat double that with a mistimed, or incorrect height reversal, it's your choice.

- - - -

I find that I reverse probably, Mid > High > Low in that order......especially against Akira.

 

While I agree with most of what you guys are saying, I think you're underestimating the psychological damage that reversals can create.. two or three good reversals can make an opponent real cautious real fast - and the timing is not at all difficult to get down.

While reversals can be risky, blocking Akira's moves and counterattacking afterwards is not that effective. If anything, dodging works better, because he's so linear. The thing is, Aoi is not exactly an offensive beast.. it's true that her reversals aren't hyper-powerful, but neither are her attacks. Her throw game is hot, but throws can be escaped.

Just to clarify, I'm not advocating using reversals as the meat and potatoes of Aoi's game... that'd be ridiculously stupid. What I AM saying is that if your opponent is predictable with hit levels, they can really mess him up... and nobody's more predictable with hit levels than Akira... even Vanessa, with her mid-heavy arsenal, can nail you with a nasty +, , throw combo if you guess wrong...

Plus, it's not that difficult to influence your opponent.. Say you tried a sweep, and it was blocked. What's coming next? Since you're ducking, it's probly a mid. So while you're standing, buffer in a mid reversal. Voila.

But please, some more info on this groovy sabaki... what's it look like, how's the sabaki window and such..

 

[ QUOTE ]
catharsis said:
While I agree with most of what you guys are saying, I think you're underestimating the psychological damage that reversals can create.. two or three good reversals can make an opponent real cautious real fast


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's what I meant. No one is going to keep spamming SDE's if his opponent is consistently reversing them.

The mark of a good Aoi player imo is one that can reverse the mid attacks enough to force the player to use high attacks, which can be ducked under and then CD'ed into a throw etc. for Aoi's advantage. This work s wonders on Jacky players who like to spam , or Akira players who use or the SDE often.
- - - -
Plus, it's not that difficult to influence your opponent.. Say you tried a sweep, and it was blocked. What's coming next? Since you're ducking, it's probly a mid. So while you're standing, buffer in a mid reversal. Voila

I know it's knitpicky, but oh well.

Say your opponent knows better to just throw out a mid, some one mentioned this before, but i'll mention it again.

You can delay the attack (only a few framed are needed) which can then hit the opponent (Aoi) and possibly get an MC.

But buffering in a mid reversal would work probably the first time on a player, but after the second or third time, don't count on using tricks like that, on human opponents anyways /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif
- - -
dodging works better, because he's so linear.

Delaying the attack (for Akira) would hit a "dodging" player as long as he attempt the move after the start of the dodge animation. And if you do decide to dodge, definately buffer in some throw escaped, especially against Akira.....

- - - -

PS: Does anyone know any good Aoi videos that have reversals in them, I couldn't find any.......I know there is one from ACT at least.....

 

I personally think that the main use for the reversal is when you tech-roll, because you no longer have to guess whether Akira is going to use + (dodge to back) or SPoD (dodge to front), both of which are Akira favorties for tech-rollers. Still, any decently smart Akira is going to mix that up with catch throw, -throw, , +, and delayed attacks once they start seeing you reverse. I play against a lot of Akiras, and I don't think they're particularly terrified by Aoi's reversals.

The + sabaki I believe is best used when Aoi has a big disadvantage, such as after a blocked + -- the move that crumbles on MC now instead of the double stop. If it sabakis, and not on normal hit or MC, it will cause a stomach crumble, and , +, (or ,) is guaranteed.

Also, if Akira blocks your sweep, he has guaranteed, unreversible double palm or shoulder or single palm-elbow, so be careful not to abuse the sweep.

 

Aoi's + sabaki is a decent gamble in pretty much any not-quite or barely throw counterable situation. It also works surprisingly well after blocked low punches - it'll even dodge back far enough to avoid a low punch reply if you're in the right stance. In other words, I'd say it's got a pretty generous window. Issues being its linear, throw counterable, and has crappy frames if you don't sabaki with it, but since you're likely to be in trouble anyway when using it . . .
Oh, and catharsis asked what it looked like - search for vfexh_ao02.asf in the media section, there's a normal hit with it in the first round and a successful sabaki at around 1:20. She pulls backwards a little, then lunges deeply forward on one knee and thrusts one fist forward at about gut level. Gives a crumble only on sabaki.

As far as Aoi gaining the ability to reverse almost all of the attack classes, this is pretty much the way she should have always been given her supposed aiki-jujitsu background. It makes her reversal game almost useful, especially compared to Akira, who is such an offensive character (in both senses of the word) that he shouldn't even need reversals to begin with. Ignore the naysayers, being able to throw out a mid reversal and not worry whether a super dashing elbow or a double palm or a shoulder ram is coming is VERY USEFUL especially when using reversals as an opening move.

 

Aoi's reversals are good, but any Akira with a pulse will not spam mid attacks. (Or any good player for that matter). The fact is, they're expecting you to reverse, so they'll simply delay the attack, and destroy you.

One point everyone has apparantly missed though. A reversed Shoulder guarantees an (escapable) down throw. As does the Elbow reversal, and one of the kick reversals and one punch reversal. The reversals themselves, aren't that damaging, but the follow-up is nice.

I think Andy has brought up the best points here. You're better off using her new sabaki move against Akira. I'm convinvced that Akira is probably the safest charater in the game, in that he does the short bursts so well that give a great advantage on hit, and very little disadvantage on block. Assuming that and will be a part of this, YY and + will come in very handy.

Other good times to use it are at -7 situations. After + (as stated) is not bad. (Also try ye-old + in this situation).

I'm actually writing a little guide on Aoi in Evo... it's going slow, and won't be comprehensive, but addresses some issues like this.