Explain VF4 counter/reversal system please.

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Ruffcoconut, Nov 19, 2001.

  1. Ruffcoconut

    Ruffcoconut Active Member

    Can anyone be so kind as to explain, preferably in depth explaination on VF4's countering/reversal system.

    I would read GLC's FAQ but i think its gone. :(.

    also are there any character specific steps eg. Lei Wulongs HaHa step.
    Can everyone preform the crouch dash in VF4? is it the same move as in Tekken and command?

    Also the movement system. (dodge, 8-way movement, Tai-step etc.) :)
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    For Reversal and Counter-Hit system, read the VF3 Beginner's Guide by AChang at Gamefaqs. Oddly enough, the reversal section appears to be more relevant to VF4 than VF3/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif.

    There are character specific stances and cancels, but nothing similar to HaHa steps or Steve's Shuffle Steps as far as I know. Not in terms of creating a function that seems unintended and specific to one character anyways.

    Crouch Dash is VERY EASY in VF4 and they have always been universal among characters since VF1. VF4 crouch dash is a simple df, df. You can also do db, db. You can even do rapid crouch dashes (had fun to an extent doing them the other day). I personally cannot consider the crouch dash to really be like Tekken, though some people see it that way... but that's a topic that can be debated upon with no real point. It's a quick way to get into crouch with a bonus of movement (crouch state really occurs before and throughout movement so you can "instantly" buffer in from crouch attacks after a crouch dash).

    Movement system for VF4 has been described a lot before...
    I'll say it again (hopefully for the last time)...
    tap up or down to dodge respectively (small dodge).
    tap up or down during the execution frames of an attack (relevant dodge, varies, character yells to indicate)
    during a dodge, move the stick around for 8-way walk.

    I haven't seen anything in English that goes into detail about what you can and can't do with the movement system.... but whatever jargon was used in VF2 and VF3 for movement that can exist in VF4 will probably be used in VF4.

    -Chanchai
     
  3. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    So you want it all spoon fed to ya huh? Lucky for you I type fast.

    Reversals are pretty simple. Attacks that hit high (ie you can duck underneat them) are reversed with b+P+K.
    Attacks that hit mid (ie you cannot duck under them and if you try, you get hit) are reversed with d/b+P+K

    Attacks that hit low (you must block them while crouching) are reversed with d+P+K.

    Exceptions:
    -There are some reversals that happen automatically if you are in a certain stance, you don't need to enter any commands to make the reversal happen. It just does. You can find the info on these in this board or on www.virtuaproject.com.
    -There are some reversals that do no damage, these are called inashi reversals or just inashi's. These are like Tekken parries for the most part.
    -Not all characters are capable of reversing at every level, although in VF4 many characters have at least one reversals. Only Lau, Lion, Jeff, Shun, and Sarah don't have one.
    -Even if you have a character who can reverse well, not all attacks are reversible. Some general rules to go by: Some crescent kicks and sweeps are not reversible, except by Aoi. Most two handed or two fisted attacks can't be reversed. Most midair attacks cannot be reversed.

    A list of the best reversers, in order:
    Aoi - can reverse high, mid, and low, and can do inashi reversals from her stance against those crescent kicks and sweeps mentioned above.
    Akira - can reverse high, mid, and low, but not crescents kicks or sweeps.
    Pai - can reverse high and mid only.
    Vanessa - can reverse high and mid only, and most of her reversals are her special hold.
    Kage - can reverse high and (some?) mid punches any time, and also autoreverse these from jumonji stance, and can reverse mid kicks from the stance.
    Wolf - can reverse high kicks, mid kicks (including sidekicks) and low punches.
    Lei - can reverse high punches from stance.
    Jacky - can reverse high punches from stance, but it does no damage.

    As for character specific steps, there aren't really any... characters move differently while in stances, for example if shun di is doing a handstand he will hop around with his hands. but everyone can crouch dash, tai step, etc. Some characters like Shun Di and Lion get special dodges.

    Crouch dashing is done by d/f, D/F on the stick. Or hold down on the stick and wiggle twice to the d/f position. Dodging is done by tapping up quickly or down quickly (the stick must return to neutral). Once you get moving in 3D, you can hold the stick in any direction to start eight way movement, which is pretty slow (I've heard it's like soul calibur). Tai step is using lots of forward and backward crouch dashes and using the guard button to stop/cancel these dashes instantly whenever you want. Korean step is sort of like this, except you cancel your dashes with dodges and vice versa so that you're constantly moving.

    Some stuff that might confuse you: when people on the board talk about reversals, they mean what you were asking about earlier - grabbing an incoming punch or kick. If they say counter, they mean punishing the opponent's attacks with one of your attacks. A major counter is when your attack interrupts the opponent's attack. A minor counter is when you block their attack (or it misses completely) and you hit them while they are recovering (they can't do anything about it). It is also possible to do minor counter throws.

    Some advice for beginners: Don't use crouch dashing or tai step until you've mastered basic f,f b,b f,f b,b dashing. Dashing back and forth can work surprisingly well: you dash forward to make the opponent try to stick out an attack, then press guard just before you get close to make the attack miss. Or you dash back and forth and irritate the opponent into rushing towards you with an attack, then you suddely dash back and make it miss. Once you get good at this, start doing the same thing with crouch dashing. I wouldn't even worry about tai or korean stepping yet.

    Reversals are great to watch, but fairly weak. Better to interrupt the opponent's attack with a combo starting move (such as a knee, or anything else that makes them float). It's also good to learn how to dodge an attack and then counterattack. Your counterattack will hit them in the side while they are still recovering from their attack. In some cases the dodge will put you almost behind the opponent, where they can't block.

    Anyway, that's enough typing for now. Someone else has undoubtedly replied as well. Good luck. And read up by using the search button.
     
  4. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    1. Sarah also can reverse low punches from her stance (P+K).

    2. Although reversals don't do much damage compared with a dodge->float combo, they have obvious psychological benefits and work especially well for trashing punch combos (block the first couple punches, b+P+K the third punch). Much of Aoi's strategy centers around the threat of a reversal or inashi (since she can reverse basically anything).
     
  5. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Attacks that hit low (you must block them while crouching) are reversed with d+P+K.

    Nit pick addition: low punches can be blocked while standing, but are still reversed with d+P+K.

    Exceptions:
    -There are some reversals that happen automatically if you are in a certain stance, you don't need to enter any commands to
    make the reversal happen. It just does. You can find the info on these in this board or on www.virtuaproject.com.


    Stress on "you don't need to enter any commands" i.e. you must leave the joystick at neutral and not be hitting any buttons (do not hold Guard) This applies to Aoi's heaven & earth stance, Kage's jumanji stance, Jacky's inashi, Lei's crane stance, and Vanessa's hand hold combos. Click on the "legend" link at the top of any of the virtuaproject movelist pages for an explanation of the reversal level abbreviations.

    Sarah does have the flamingo stance low punch sabaki. Although I'd call it an inashi as it does no damage... basically creates a crumple down animation similar to a sweep hitting. Sarah can jam on P+K over and over again like Pai could inashi in VF3ob, but since it only works vs. low punches it's not that useful. <shrug>

    Kage - can reverse high and (some?) mid punches any time, and also
    <snip>

    The way I interpret it is that he can reverse all the same punches as he could in VF2/3, but with the new reversal system of VF4, Kage now has to delineate between high and mid punches. For example, in the older games, Akira's single palm was a high reversal. It's now a mid reversal. Sucks big time for Kage... he never could and still cannot reverse elbows.

    Jacky - can reverse high punches from stance, but it does no damage.

    This needs to be fixed at virtuaproject. Jacky does not have to be in shuffle step to inashi punches. We experienced this annoying phenomenon while screwing around during mercy rounds in NYC. Jacky player who won the first round takes his hand off the stick to have conversation with his mates, and the other player has more difficulty than he should because he's just learning that you cannot touch Jacky with any punches as he inashis them all.

    My question is about Jacky's inashi-backfist combo. I haven't seen it yet. Is this where the shuffle step requirement comes in? Or can Jacky do the inashi-backfist from his default stance as well?
     
  6. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    "My question is about Jacky's inashi-backfist combo. I haven't seen it yet. Is this where the shuffle step requirement comes in? Or can Jacky do the inashi-backfist from his default stance as well?"

    all you have to do to jacky's inashi-backfist is press punch as soon as you see jacky inashing someone, no need to be in a stance. thas it. also, i hear that you have a guaranteed throw situation after that. Im not 100% sure, but thats what someone told me
     
  7. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Jacky can inashi punches without being in stance? Silly. Sega wanted him to be a pig!

    Except do we know of any guaranteed followups or anything? And is this for realism? Is JKD supposed to be that centered around catching incoming punches?
     
  8. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
    XBL:
    adamYUKI
    This is true, I was having some problem with a masher Lau and after the first match I realized that he was just hitting ppp most of the time and mixing in an elbow or throw in random, so I let go of guard and masher Lau had a huge problem against me since sooner or later he hit punch and I auto inashied the punch and hit punch for the guaranteed followup, he was punching so often that I ended up auto inashiing his punches probably three to four times that round, then he realized that he should stop mashing on P. About the auto throw situation, I think its even, similar to reversing akira's d/f+pg grab, neither character seems to have the advantage. Jacky might have like a 1 or 2 frame advantage, but im not so sure that I would call it a guaranteeed throw situation without someone being able to reliably enter a throw command.

    CrewNYC
     
  9. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    JKD is about intercepting which can take many forms.
     
  10. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    personally i love the way only some fighters can reverse/inashi in vf3, with others being reversal-free. it adds a nice balance, e.g. lion's got plenty of annoying/useful attacks, whereas aoi has less knockdown moves but can win by letting the opponent take the initiative....etc...etc....

    it kinda made character selection more interesting.

    so, in theory, i dislike the idea of more characters having reversals and inashis...but in practice (i.e. playing vf4), i'm sure i'll enjoy the new changes.
     
  11. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    When I would play down at the Casino I saw very few people use the new inashi's that Sarah and Jacky have. I think it's great that only certain characters have actual counters. I mean, anyone can dodge but counters have serious power.

    Still I'm bitter at the fact that Kickflips are now mid kick countered. I had so much respect for a guy in VF3 who could out smart me and counter my Kickflip. Now, I have to work even harder to beat Aoi, thank Suzuki for the Full Spin Dive and Tornado Kick.
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I was talking to Hiro about VF4 and real martial arts, and he pointed out that "auto-inashi" like Jacky's is very realistic. Basically, Jacky has his arms up defending as his default stance. If someone punches straight into his face, it's only natural (if not instinctive) for him to automatically parry the punch.
     
  13. Luya

    Luya Active Member

    Inashi

    While I play VF4, I noticed it's possible to parry some attacks like PPPK style with character like Sarah. I wonder if we ever see player who use use inashis first time seen with Lau/Pai pratice.
     
  14. gamesmaster1_2be

    gamesmaster1_2be Well-Known Member

    while i agree Aoi is by far the best at reversing, Akira is the only one with combo potetial from his reversals at around 80 points
    (DBC)
     
  15. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    while i agree Aoi is by far the best at reversing, Akira is the only one with combo potetial from his reversals at around 80 points
    (DBC)


    What reversal gives you an 80 point deep bodycheck? If you mean his b+P+K+G inashi reversal, you can do spod + ground punch after ~82, or f+P->ff+K,K after for 70-something... or even a yoho combo or QCB+P... but a bodycheck in that situation always does very little damage.

    Did you mean a high punch or kick reversal into the wall, followed by a deep bodycheck? That's ~60 pts...
     
  16. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Wolf's got a low punch reversal that's a good setup for the knee. At least 80 points of damage if you count the damage given by the reversal.
     

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