Explanation of the Clash System

Seeing as how VF5 is coming out soon, I thought I'd explain in detail how the clash system works for Version B.

In an attempt to encourage more moral style of play, VF5 introduces a new clash system where a throw can cancel out an attacking attempt contrary to the system in VF4 where attacks always beat throws.


In VF5, depending on the situation and the attacks involved, when a throw makes contact with an attack, they will clash and cancel each other out, leaving both sides at +0 frames advantage and no damage done to either side.


To understand where exactly a throw clash can occur, let's take a look at the following equation.

Code:

Speed of normal throw (not zero frame) < Attack Execution Speed / 2 (round down) + Current frame adv. or disadv.

or simply

12 < [exe/2] + frame

When you satisfy this equation, a clash will occur.

Let's look at some examples.

A normal hit from a Low Punch gives a +4 frames advantage. In VF4, since you are not guaranteed a throw in this situation, any attack from the opponent will beat your throw attempt at +4. In VF5, however, the equation above goes into play. Now let's fill in the parts, assuming the opponent does a knee class attack (17 frames).

Code:

  12 < (17/2) + 4
= 12 < 8 + 4
= 12 < 12 (false)

Therefore, a clash will not occur, and the knee will beat the throw, but any attack slower than 17 frames will induce a clash.

Let's look at another example. You get a counter hit standing , and now you are at +8 frames advantage. Let's figure out what kind of attacks the opponent can do to induce a clash.

Code:

  12 < (?/2) + 8
= 12 - 8 < (?/2) + 8 - 8
=  4 * 2 < (?/2) * 2
=  8 < ? 

What this says is that any attack the opponent does which is slower than 8 frames will clash with your throw attempt, making throwing a very safe option in this situation. Even a lightweight class would clash in this situation.


Another example, Akira hits you normal hit with , leaving you at -4, what should you do to beat a throw clash?

Similar to the above example, we work out the math.

Code:

  12 < (?/2) + 4
= 12 - 4 < (?/2) + 4 - 4
=  8 * 2 < (?/2) * 2
=  16 < ? 

The equation tells you that any attack slower than 16 frames will clash with Akira's throw attempt, so if you do anything 16 frames or faster, you can beat the throw attempt.


Aside from looking purely at the frames. The induction of a clash is also dependent on the class of attack.

There are 3 classes of attack which will never clash with a throw.
1) Ducking state attacks, such as low punch or low kicks.
2) Attacks that leave you back turned such as Lion's .
3) Jumping state attacks, such as Lau's .
When these three classes are used as reverse nitaku, even in large disadvantaged situations, no clash will occur and they will beat out a throw.

Be aware, that certain attacks with jumping state classification have a very long execution speed. In very large disadvantaged situations, it is still possible for a clash to occur.

Looking at the way the clashing system works, the traditional reverse nitaku game has been drastically changed in large disadvantaged situations. Many of the reverse nitaku tool such as Akira's are no longer useable in large disadvantage to beat a throw attempt. In addition, in large disadvantaged situation, no longer can you use small safe attacks to interrupt a throw/mid guessing game. You must commit to a very big attack to beat out a throw attempt, opening yourself up for back crumple, or hit out of the air for a combo, etc.

In small disadvantaged situation, the reverse nitaku game is largely the same as in VF4.

In summary, for Virtua Fighter 5, a throw can NEVER beat an attack, it can only clash and reset the situation when you satisfy the conditions posted above. An attack in disadvantaged situation will ALWAYS either clash or beat the throw attempt depending on the conditions posted above. One thing you might be wondering, is when can a throw interrupt or beat an attack? Don't forget that throw speed is 12 frames in VF5, so if you get a +12 situation, a throw is guaranteed.

Keep these in mind when you play VF5.

 

Awesome Srider -- thanks for this post. This was the main thing in VF5 I've been wondering about.

P.S. How fun is it to do all those math problems, haha!

 

Nice work, man. It's great to finally get my brain wrapped around this new system. Less than two months - VF5!

 

I know this might be confusing for alot of people. If there is something that you are not clear about, please don't be afraid to ask.

 

Are moves like Jeffry's knee (which animate as a small jump) clash-able?

 

Jeffry's Knee is considered jumping, so it doesn't clash.

The example I gave has more to do with Knee class attack being 17 frames, but within Knee class attack, there are different kinds of Knees.

Jeffry's Knee, for example, falls under the 3 types of exceptions. So you can do his knee at any time and it will never clash under normal circumstance.

 

I'm pretty sure I understand what you've posted, and somehow even got the numbers portion (I'm horrible at them). But to be sure, leme make sure I understand where you say "In summary, for Virtua Fighter 5, a throw can NEVER beat an attack, it can only clash and reset the situation when you satisfy the conditions posted above".

So in VF5, if the conditions arn't met, the attack will hit the one performing the throw correct? When the clash does occur, what does it look like? Just kind of like a teched throw in other fighters? The 0 frames advatange to both sounds like it to me. If this is how it is, I think this sounds like a great addition to the VF system. Though, I havn't built any habbits with the old system to dislike this change or really critique I guess lol.

 

If the equation is not satisfied, then the attack will beat the throw.

When the clash occurs, it shows the thrower grabbing, and the other player attacking, and both of their limbs bounce back. Yes, similar to a teched throw in other fighters.

 

Awesome, thanks for all the info.

 

Beautiful. So it looks like Jeffry's reverse nitaku game is still strong in VF5.

 

Excellent breakdown Srider. I'm glad this is a sticky.

 

ya, thanks for all your hard work Srider!

 

You're indicating that an abnormal circumstance exists during which Jeffrey's knee will clash - like when I push the Japanese button. Big thanks to Kazu for giving the button to me before he left.

 

anyway, nice job srider, and thanks for the work you put into making this understandable in a universal way!

Well, now that we can see concretely exactly how it works, I have 2 questions:

1. does this system come into effect when there is no Frame Adv/Dis? For example, with attacks like Jeffry's Kenka Kick, which is 26 frames, or his 466P+K in FT, which is 30. Since these would meet the requirements for the equation to work even without Adv/Dis being present, because of slow execution, will they clash if the oppt pushes P+G when they are about to hit?

2. Now that it's been spelled out, what do people THINK? Do people like AM2 messing with the "Attack beats Throw" game that's been the basis of Yomi for a long time? Does it seem AM2 is doing the thinking for you?

When playing the game in Japan, I can say that this system, along w/ the fact that TR near the wall is too dangerous now because of so many attacks either causing the new Wall KD (which several characters can do w/ good Ukemi-zeme attacks which are circular @ multiple hit levels) or outright RO'ing over low walls (which might turn out to be interesting: you have to consider WHEN to TR more) were the 2 things about VF5 I thought should be worked on more. Although, I haven't played enough to come to a real vision of how the clash system will effect gameplay as a whole in the long run.

Initially, it seemed like Clash would encourage more Throwing, making it safer. But, understanding the rules more and having played some, I think we'll actually see people using the system to beat out directional throw Nitaku/Santaku with attacks. IE the example of getting hit w/ Counter P is a good one: you can simply mash P to beat any throw attempt, since it'll clash; you don't have to worry about which throw is coming. Of course, you'll eat almost any Attack. This would seem to lead to more Attack -> Attack flows, and people using Attack more to defend from Throws (which is in itself a kind of Reverse Nitaku: Attacking out of Disadvantage). In the end, will the system actually encourage more Attacking than Throwing? I don't know...

I can say this: the first time I correctly Yomi'd a Throw, only to have my SPOD clashed, I wasn't digging the new system.

What do others think?

Bryan

 

I don't have enough experience in VF to say totally if this is the suck, but I can say it is an interesting twist on the RPS system. Especially if there are a lot of these "exceptionary" attacks that do not fall into throw clashes. I think if might provoke players to think more when doing reverse nitaku. IE in VF4 if a player knew you were gonna throw they could techincally use any attack and they would win. In VF5 you either have to know the situation well enough to choose an attack that won't get clashed or use an attack that is an exception to the clash rule. It sounds interesting but I guess I can't really say much till I play and experience it.

It seems it favors a more strict and technical style of play, and less of the rock paper scissor answers. Can't say I'm disappointed as I've been playing RPS Extreme version (DoA) for the last 3 years. I guess I'll need to play it to get the best opinion.

 

My +! will be at 99% by the end of March.

 

LOL, I was about to say akira can do the knee too..the damage protential wont differ much from SPOD..i guess.

I can imagine: knee>> >dlb plam

and i am wondering if the body check considered as a instant back turned attack...

 

Is Akira's knee in VF5 considered a jumping attack?