Explanation of the Clash System

If you want to see how good throws are now, just watch Saraman playing Wolf, the Black Book DVD is a good example. He's basically built his style around nailing 0 Frame Perfect Giant Swings. I think the new system encourages more watching and guessing if the oppt will be standing/crouching to get a 0 frame throw, which is really strong for obvious reasons. Remember too that Fuzzy is now much weaker to characters who have Low Throws, since they'll come out instantly.

 

To update this thread -- not all attacks that are jumping are considered unclashable. Jeffry's knee, for example, WILL clash! My theory is that attacks with jumping animations but which have frames where the character begins standing is actually not considered a jumping attack. Another example is Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, where he needs a few frames before being considered airborne. Moves where the character instantly jumps, however, such as Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, will not clash.

Anyway, I don't know what the heck Sega is thinking. Does Jeffry even have a jumping attack that will not clash, or is he reduced to using low attacks and ducking?? Sadly, I think the answer is yes. I would have thought Jeffry's new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif would at least be unclashable, but...nope.

 

what?!?!?! are you sure about this? that's stupid if true.

 

Yeah, I tested it. Another weird one -- Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is also clashable.

To answer an old question about whether long executing attacks (like Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) will clash, the answer is yes. Instead of the attack animating, a clash occurs automatically if the equation is satisfied.

Edit: Jeffry does have one jumping move that doesn't clash. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Yup, how sad is that.

 

Did you guys not read the part in my first post...

That explains exactly why some jumping attacks will still clash.

 

I don't think long execution speed is the criterion though. Jeffry's knee is 17 frames and clashable, whereas his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is 24 frames and not clashable

 

it's implied that it's very dependent on the animation as you said. Longer exe speed usually means more time before being airborne, thus more likely to clash as the disadvantage goes up.

 

Not sure if we're disagreeing here, but Jeffry's knee AFAIK will clash like any other regular 17 frame attack--it's not a matter of liklihood.

 

Dunno how in VF5, but in EVO is Jeffry's f+K considered as jumping attack only according to it's animation, but it is not real jump. In real, it is not going over any low attack under any cirumstances AFAIK.

 

So that just means Jeffry's knee is not a jumping attack. Too bad for Jeffry.

 

But I think it is a jumping attack. If you get hit in the middle of the knee by a move that doesn't normally knock down (standing P, for example), does it still give a free knock down?

If so, it's stupid that Jeff's knee has all the disadvantages of a jumping knee (guaranteed counter on block -15 iirc, free knock down, doesn't go over lows), but has none of the advantages of a jumping knee (no clash, goes over lows).

If it's a standing knee, it should be non-counterable on block like Wolf and Goh (-8 or 9 iirc) and shouldn't grant a knock down if interrupted.

I know it's not always fair to look at a single move and try to judge it, but in this case at least, it seems pretty absurd (especially in light of the animation sequence!).

 

Skimmed through to see if it had been posted.

I only played for one night but I swear Akira's 214P was clashing with throws. What would be the reason for that one?

 

Because it fits with the rules posted in the first post. That move doesn't fit into any of the 3 categories of attacks and doesn't clash.

 

Goh's and Wolf's knees require counterhit to grant a combo, Jeff's doesn't.

It doesn't seem like that many characters have good jumping attacks that won't clash...

 

Even el blaze's 8p+k clashes at high disadvantages...

 

Good point! I totally forgot about that.

It seems weird that blaze's 8p+k clashes though. That definitely goes over lows.

 

ALL jumping attacks will clash if it has a long animation (which almost all of them do) at heavy disadvantages.

For the most part, you can reliably use jumping attacks to cleanly beat a throw attempt.

 

AFAIK that's not true Srider; some attacks will not clash no matter the disadvantage (up to throw counterability). Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is one example; Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is another. It seems that Sega has arbitrarily (or semi-arbitrarily) assigned certain jumping attacks as clashable (up to a certain disadantage) and others as unclashable.

Jeffry really suffers from not having a good reverse nitaku attack because in VF4 his game was built on easy nitaku and powerful reverse nitaku. In VF5, it's not so easy for him to get true throw/attack nitaku situations and he's now relatively weaker than others on reverse nitaku. Personally, I'm struggling to understand how Jeffry is meant to be played. Even when I watch the Jeffry clips on the PS3 disc, the player seems to be winning from good guesses and good movement alone and not from any character-specific strategy.

 

I tried those examples you gave in training, and are you right jeff, those move indeed are better at avoiding clash than others.

I feel like it has to do with the animation of the move and how easily you can animate the clash when it happens. For example, Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif goes into the air pretty quickly, i think it's hard to animate the clash so it's not clashable. Goh's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif turns Goh around in the initial frames so it doesn't clash as easily. I guess it's just one of those things where you just have to know the nuances of the game.