Exploiting TR'ing opponents with SABAKI

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by LAU Abuser, Jan 18, 2002.

  1. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Can anyone 'donate' some insights for pursuing a TR'ing opponents with Sabaki moves?
     
  2. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    What's the point? Sure you can use mid-level sabaki attacks to hit tech rollers, but almost any other mid-level attack would also work. Or are you looking to sabaki a rising attack after the tech roll ends? It can be done, the same as reversing rising attacks. Look at what type of attacks the sabaki works against in the move list. You need to be able to sabaki vs. mid-kicks or low-kicks. But I don't think the spinning/crescent type rising attacks can be reversed (except by Aoi) so there are generally few opportunities to do this. I believe most of Akira's rising attacks can be reversed. Maybe one of his only flaws, although his rising attacks seem to recover faster than other characters'. So it balances out.

    Lau Abuser, do you have a specific scenario or example to enlighten us where you're going with this?

    I can think of using Sarah's P+K as an opponent tech rolls to enter flamingo stance and it's options etc. But that's really kind of obvious... <shrug>
     
  3. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Sorry about the 'broadness' of my Question...

    I'm referring to pursuing an opponent after he/she TR... I understand that the TR opponent is at a disadvantage when the TRing or after TR... Can any Sabaki move exploit the opponent after he/she finished their TR... Any good Sabaki that gives Priority to our character? E.g. Any Sabaki that recovers faster than the blocking opponent?
     
  4. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I do not get it. Sabaki moves is useful when you are at a disadvantage and is USUALLY not done when pursuing a tech roller. But anyway, Vanessa sabaki (DS) b,f+k,p leaves Vanessa with initiative if opponent blocks the P. But the P is high so can be ducked under.
     
  5. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    No need to apologize at all... some people might not have thought about this, so it's a valid question IMO.

    I'm referring to pursuing an opponent after he/she TR... I understand that the TR opponent is at a disadvantage when the TRing or after TR... Can any Sabaki move exploit the opponent after he/she finished their TR...

    The "disadvantage" is that a tech roller is considered to be a crouching non-defender during the tech roll. He is vulnerable to mid/low attacks and low throws. The sabaki nature of some attacks is irrelevent if you're attacking someone while they tech roll, as the tech roller can not attack you. As I said before, what's the point?

    After a tech roll is over, I believe the rising attack has the same properties/stats as a rising attack after a normal side roll to get up. See my reply above. If the rising attack can be reversed, then it can also be sabakied <sic>

    Any good Sabaki that gives Priority to our character? E.g. Any Sabaki that recovers faster than the blocking opponent?

    Two very good questions that cannot be answered with certainty until we see the frame stats and block stun formula. You can determine if an attack is uncounterable with a little experimenting at the arcade. Have a friend block the attack and then mash P+G to see if he throws you while you mash the punch button. If the punch beats the throw, then the attack is uncounterable. If a sabaki attack is not listed in Mr Bungles counter guide, then it might be uncounterable, but it could also mean that it was not considered "useful enough" to make the list in the first place. Hmm... this is something that should eventually go into the character dojos: attacks that are uncounterable when blocked.
     
  6. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Actually, i wanted some Sabaki moves to replace my often used normal attacks such as floaters and 'charged moves' to attack a TR recovered opponents... My stategy of throwing them after they finished their TR had caused them to retaliate with Low attacks and crouches... I considered floaters risky because if they decided to block high, my knee and charged attacks will not hit them the way i wanted... I considered using A sabaki to play 'safe' so that if they block a Sabaki, i would still somehow haf some priority over them... If a Sabaki hits, i would be able to add come more damage as they 'crumble'... Hope you can help me with some contributions like:
    1. Sabaki with priority even when blocked.
    2. Sabaki that can allow further massive damage when the Sabaki hits...
     
  7. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    I thought I would throw this in here. A note on low-throwing TRers. Kbcat and I tested that if a tech roller attempts any attack while rising during a tech roll, they *cannot* be low thrown. The only time one gets the low throw against a TRer is when the TRer does nothing. I think this is because you don't actually throw them as they're 'rolling' but rather at the end of the roll when they're considered to be crouching for a small window.

    cheers,
     
  8. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Umm which character in general or are you talking in general. Besides why bother with the sabaki when you can go for a standard guessing game as you have the iniative when opponent tech rolls.

    ie
    Mid attacks
    Low attacks
    Low throw

    You have the oppurtunity to attack first so sabaki is pointless in this scenario. Unless you forfeit your iniative and let them get up and go for sabaki. The opponent's attack upon techroll is not a rising attack, nor can he execute them.

    Aoi, Akira, Lei Fei, Lion, Vanessa are the main characters that have an offensive sabaki move. But then again you attack them first so what is there to counter?!?!?!

    BTW.. what is your definition of SABAKI cause i think there may be some confusion.

    My understanding of Sabaki is a move that counters or neutralises an attack. There are two kinds. The catch or deflection type.
     
  9. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    BTW.. what is your definition of SABAKI cause i think there may be some confusion.

    My understanding of Sabaki is a move that counters or neutralises an attack. There are two kinds. The catch or deflection type.


    Yeah, Lau Abusuer, the questions you're asking don't make sense in this context.

    Lau Abuser wrote:
    I considered using A sabaki to play 'safe' so that if they block a Sabaki, i would still somehow haf some priority over them... If a Sabaki hits, i would be able to add come more damage as they 'crumble'

    The special property that makes sabaki attacks different happens during their execution phase only. Once a sabaki attack is in recovery, it behaves the same as any other attack. Don't assume that because an attack is sabaki that it's uncounterable, and just because an attack has sabaki qualities doesn't mean that it causes crumple downs.

    If you want to play 'safe' stick with simple mid-level attacks, like an elbow or sidekick.
     
  10. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Llanfair I agree with you. I'll add something from experience:
    when you enter d/u+all after falling, you roll, then recover in a crouching state. This does not mean you are recovering in crouch, which means low throw is not possible unless you do nothing but trying to standup and/or defend. However if he enters low throw as the same frame(s) as you trying to stand from crouch, the throw will connect.
    Everything is completely reversed when you do the pkg raise thing (kip?), you recover in standing and if you try to do nothing but crouch, you'll get thrown.
     

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