Fahrenheit 9/11

I finaly saw the movie. It did, as I expected, make me sad and furious. For me the most compelling parts were not Moore's hijinks or words, but the footage of the war, and of Bush and his cronies dissembling. Perhaps saddest was a Flint Michigan mother who lost her son in the war. Her sorrow and anger leave as big an impression as anything else in the film.

Though Moore can over-simplify and in all cases ascribes only the worst motives to the Bush and his puppeteers, what's surprising is how often he hits the mark. What an insane three and a half years it has been since that simpleton and his Machiavellian posse stole the presidency!

Seeing Fahrenheit 9/11 is both cathartic and motivating, unless of course your a right winger. In which case you will probably prefer hearing your own point of view shouted back at you over and over on, say, Fox News.

Americans, Vote! Get your friends and family to vote. If you suspect someone close to you may be thinking of voting for Bush, let the air out of their tires on the morning of election day or shoot them with a powerful tranquilizer that will incapacitate them until the polls close. Peace.

 

Who are you voting for?

 

I'm voting for Nader. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Nader, huh?

Why not vote for Jacky Bryant? Or how about your neighbor's chihuahua or your favorite fictional character, maybe, Holden Caulfield?

 

Im australian and i wanna get a question answered...whats wrong with Bush? Oh yeah NOFX like Nader too...(if you know who they are)

 

It would be quicker to describe what is right with Bush. Precious Little, I tell you. Maybe he treats his pets well; I don't know.

You listen to NOFX, but you are not sure why you should dislike Bush? Or are you just pulling our collective chains?

Fat Mike of NOFX is a nice guy. I met him in Tokyo- he's a very down to earth millionaire. He and punkvoter.com do not support Nader. They support Kerry because he is the Democratic nominee and thus the only person with a chance to beat Bush.

There are many things about Nader's critique of the American political system that I agree with. I do not agree with his methods, however. Imagine... No Nader in 2000. Gore wins the election...No bazillion dollar deficits...No war in Iraq...Possibly no 9/11...

Did Nader learn his lesson? Nope. He's an egomaniac poseur who cares more about being in the spotlight than about the lives effected by his actions.

Here's the scoop on Nader:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/01/nader_jacobs/index_np.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/01/politics/campaign/01NADE.html?pagewanted=print&position=

I am sorry if I seem to be jumping on you here, but Nader pisses me off. Corporations, the GOP, and the religious right have successfully moved the American political spectrum far to the right in the last 25 years. The only way to work against this is to try and get candidates elected who are as progressive as possible. It's all about being pragmatic. I wish I could give Nader an SPoD.

 

No im not pulling your chains...whatever that means...
Wow your so lucky...Fat Mike is awesome...
In 'Franco Un-American' he says something about Nader being voted for so i assumed he voted for him.
Thanks for sharing your views on the American Government.

 

I want to see Farenheight 9/11 but on the other hand I’m loath to line the pockets of Michael Moore. Granted he’s a decent film-length documentary director and I’d be first to praise Bowling for Columbine. However, since then he’s been on a personal crusade to highlight only the most negatives motives and aspirations of the coalition's involvement in Iraq.

It’s easy for him, and anyone for that matter, to sit back in the comfort of his safe western lifestyle and wave his finger and bitch all day about the war and the terrible loss of civilian life. But has this man EVER once provided an alternative strategy to the war or asked himself why Eastern Europe is so keen to help in the struggle in Iraq?

While he lambastes Bush as being the sole purrveyor of this war he completely ignores the support of countries like Romania, Latvia and Poland, who after years of being repressed by various dictatorships and opressive goverments still appreciate the taste of democracy and civil liberties, and want the same for Iraq. These basic principles are things the new generation of people in rich western countries seem to take for granted.

I’m not right wing nor particularly politically minded but if there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s woolly liberals who do nothing but bitch, and in Moors case make millions of dollars from doing so.

As was famously quoted about Moore:

“If you’re going to condemn the excesses of Western governments nd capitalism you probably shouldn’t weigh over 400 poundsâ€Â

 

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MAXIMUM said:

I want to see Farenheight 9/11 but on the other hand I’m loath to line the pockets of Michael Moore. Granted he’s a decent film-length documentary director and I’d be first to praise Bowling for Columbine. However, since then he’s been on a personal crusade to highlight only the most negatives motives and aspirations of the coalition's involvement in Iraq.

It’s easy for him, and anyone for that matter, to sit back in the comfort of his safe western lifestyle and wave his finger and bitch all day about the war and the terrible loss of civilian life. But has this man EVER once provided an alternative strategy to the war or asked himself why Eastern Europe is so keen to help in the struggle in Iraq?

While he lambastes Bush as being the sole purrveyor of this war he completely ignores the support of countries like Romania, Latvia and Poland, who after years of being repressed by various dictatorships and opressive goverments still appreciate the taste of democracy and civil liberties, and want the same for Iraq. These basic principles are things the new generation of people in rich western countries seem to take for granted.

I’m not right wing nor particularly politically minded but if there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s woolly liberals who do nothing but bitch, and in Moors case make millions of dollars from doing so.

As was famously quoted about Moore:

“If you’re going to condemn the excesses of Western governments and capitalism you probably shouldn’t weigh over 400 poundsâ€Â

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If you dont want to line his pockets download it, Moore said he supports people downloading his movie, he doesnt care about the loss of income becouse he is well off enough witouth it.

Plenty of alternatives were presented BEFORE the war, this administration wasagainst em from the offset becouse war with Iraq regardles of actual merit was what they wanted and what they pushed for.

The support from former communist block countries has nothing to do with taste of freedom or whatever.
The majorities in those countries have been OPPOSED to their involvemend from the start and the respective governments only showed their support in exchange for hefty economic and monetary aid(no intrest bussuines loans backed by the US government, millitary aid etcetera)
Even then some countries refused.
Turkey for instance was offered 30 billion dollar loan on the same conditions the US lends money to Israel(here is a heap of cash lets call it a loan but urm you dont have to pay back, we will just call it a loan for political purposes), and they REJECTED it after a democratic vote in parliament.
It was democracy at work, so needles to say the Bush white house was furious.
Turkish government having a democratic vote and listening to the will of its people and voting against support for a illigitimate war?
OUTRAGEOUS, HOW DARE THEY.

As for the money, Moore said he doesnt care if people pirate his movie as long as its not for comercial purposes, he has enough money as is.
And yeah real mature denounce his movie based on his body weight.

 

Well those are fair points if true but I don’t buy this as the reason these countries helped the coalition. Again, this is how Moore tends to focus only on the facts that support his attempts to demonise Bush and the administration. By portraying Romania and Latvia as struggling post-communist states in need of cash he’s patronising their political views and importance in Europe. You only need to look at the last 20 years of Romania history to understand why the new political party (and the majority of public) supported this action. While Moore has probably lived a sheltered life free from repression his fellow human being in Romania have suffered the real horror of living under a government who murdered and humiliated its people.

But if you want to talk about countries acting in self interest look at France and Germany. Under the veil of being the outspoken pacifist nations in Europe they’ve hidden their own economic motives for supporting the old Iraq regime. France and Germany were the biggest trading partners with the thugs who ran Iraq. Yes, France and Germany would’ve been quite content to see Iraq rotting under another 10 years of UN sanctions due to their huge oil contracts with Baghdad.

I’ll still go see the film however, but I’ll be taking it all with a liberal dosage of salt.

 

After seeing the movie I must say moore did a good job in describing a couple of the NUMEROUS reasons why this administration is thuroughly currupt and deserve to be hung in times square. None of this is new news to anyone who reads alternative news or has his or her eyes open to the evil that goes on in the US, but at least 75% of americans (i'd say 85 but I guess i should be a little more trusting) do not. So if this is new to you, start checking what your reading / watching and begin a self revolution.

 

Moore disses coalition members primarily because they do not have anything to contribute militarily and seem to have joined the "Coalition of the Willing" as window dressing so that George II could pretend that this was an international effort.

You say that France and Germany opposed the war for selfish economic reasons. However, a majority of both of those nations' populations opposed the war. Since they are democracies, is it so wrong for their leaders to follow the will of the people?

Interestingly enough, only two countries on the planet had popular majorities who supported the war: the U.S. and Israel. So what kinds of economic and diplomatic pressure did the U.S. put on coalition members? We'll probably never know. Suffice it to say that it could more accurately be called the "Coalition of the Coerced."

Also, I have heard that all the proceeds from the film are going to charity. Moore comes from Flint, Michigan. While he has done well for himself, he has surely seen firsthand a lot of people having hard times.

You are correct to cleverly point out that Moore is indeed a fat man. Take that Michael Moore!

 

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if there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s woolly liberals who do nothing but bitch

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if there's one thing i can't stand it's idiots who get up on the soapbox and opine loudly on something they haven't experienced themselves.

go out and actually see the fucking movie before you puke out any more essays on it.

 

MAXIMUM,
why don't you go see the movie before you rant on it? I mean do you believe people can take you seriously talking about something you know nothing about? How can you establish your opinion on F911 when you have yet seen it? Who's brainwashed here hmm? Please see the movie before you open your mouth on this thread again k?

 

I was talking about Moore and Iraq in general, not F 9/11.

 

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MAXIMUM said:

I was talking about Moore and Iraq in general, not F 9/11.

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Nobody gives a fuck about your opinion on Moore or Iraq. They are talking about the movie. If you have nothing to say about the movie, STFU.

 

Iraq is Vietnam all over again. We're over there where we're not wanted. If we were invading to take over, as 'morally' wrong as that would be, the loss of troops would be for America. As it is, Americans are dying for nothing. America isn't going to get any sweet oil deals from Iraq after American companies rebuild their infrastructure with American taxpayer money. America isn't going to be viewed as a great 'savior of the oppressed' by the world, or even by the damn Iraqis. We're being publically lambasted by our ALLIES for what's going on in Iraq.

And our soldiers are being put on extended duty tours and extended enlistment. Not only do they have to serve in combat zones longer, but they have to stay on active duty longer. If it were America they were defending, fine. It's not. Iraqi freedom is being bought at the price of American blood. Fuck them, their country, and their freedom. They want our freedom, let them vote to become the 51st state.

There is no political or military reason to remain in Iraq. There is no economic reason for *America* to remain over there - but there is an economic reason for corporations to want us over there, because they're leeching the hell out of American tax dollars. On Fox News, one of the most biased news networks around, they reported that Halliburton(sp) had overcharged a total of $98 billion dollars. The federal government was looking into it, and was getting ready to fine them $130 *million* dollars. I'd take a pure profit of $96.7 billion dollars - how about you? And that's a $98 billion overcharge. How much money do you think that they're spending keeping our troops over there? What about all the medicare funding cuts you hear? Social security? Couldn't we use that money better over here, for the people who actually LIVE in this country? Take care of our own first, and then the rest of world. I don't see the rest of the world sending troops or financial aid over here to help with riots in LA or to help police public school halls. I don't see the rest of the world sending anything our way except for stuff for us to buy and ambassadors asking for loans, grants, and favorable trade agreements - in their favor, not ours.

And where's our great leader George Bush during all of this? He's on vacation more than any wartime president ever. Which is good for him, because he doesn't make himself look like an idiot when he's there.

NONE of this information came from watching Fahrenheit 911, although some of it is in the movie. Go see the movie if you want to see Moore try to link George W. Bush to a few big military corporations. I'm not convinced that everything he says or implies in the movie is true, but there's a lot of rather unpleasant evidence he brings up involving Bush. F911 did lower my opinion of Bush, but he already wasn't getting my vote. When I was watching as he issued his declaration of war against Iraq and subsequent press conferences, it looked to me like he was trying to keep from grinning and cracking a smile the whole time - why would a President be happy about sending our troops to war? I'd vote for Kermit the fucking Frog over George Bush at this point if he was the only alternative. Not like it matters, really. Go read latter day Roman history, and you'll understand.

And Moore's 'recruitment' of the US Senators was pretty funny, I thought. And really nice to watch those bastards who are supposed to have their constituents' best interests at heart run away like he had the plague. It's a shame that the plane didn't hit the House and the Senate instead of the World Trade Towers. I've said for a long time that the moment we go to war, the sons and daughters of our Congressmen and Senators should be put on the front lines. That way, they'd be doing their best to end the war as fast as possible. When it's just the not-rich dying, they don't give a rat's ass, but if you put their teenaged son on the front line, you can bet they'd be doing what was best for our troops, not what was best for some corporation who donated tons of money to their campaign.


I guess I'm being a bit too hard on our leaders. We ARE a capitalist government, after all. See, we've got the best leaders money can buy...

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shang said:

[ QUOTE ]
MAXIMUM said:

I was talking about Moore and Iraq in general, not F 9/11.

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Nobody gives a fuck about your opinion on Moore or Iraq. They are talking about the movie. If you have nothing to say about the movie, STFU.

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I'm so sorry I didn't stick to the strict topic of the thread you cheeky fuck-tard.

I did mention from the outset I hadn't seen the film and thought it appropriate to explain why I had some reservations about going to see it.

 

Your reservations will be answered in the movie. All those things you talked about in your previous posts will be addressed.

 

Maximum... you need to step back and take a look at what you just wrote, man.

First you said, in reply to the allegation that Eastern European countries were supporting the invasion of Iraq only because of money:
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Well those are fair points if true but I don’t buy this as the reason these countries helped the coalition.


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Then you say this:
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But if you want to talk about countries acting in self interest look at France and Germany. Under the veil of being the outspoken pacifist nations in Europe they’ve hidden their own economic motives for supporting the old Iraq regime. France and Germany were the biggest trading partners with the thugs who ran Iraq. Yes, France and Germany would’ve been quite content to see Iraq rotting under another 10 years of UN sanctions due to their huge oil contracts with Baghdad.


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So in your viewpoint:

The first case: Dirt poor governments offered money for nothing more than political backing and minor troop commitment -> bullshit lies.

Second case: Fairly rich governments refusing to back a war because of money invested by their people -> gospel truth.

How can you believe that the goverments of fairly rich countries (France and Germany) would oppose a war because of money, but the governments of dirt poor struggling countries (Latvia and Romania) would not support a war when offered free money?

Street whores charge less than high society call girls. Go up to Jacqueline Kennedy, offer her $25,000 to spend the night with you - she'll laugh. Go up to some crack ho, make the same offer, and you won't have any skin left the next morning. Up the price to $25 million, and you can probably get Jacqueline in the sack. We just weren't offering enough money to France and Germany for them to sell out their people. We could only afford the crack hos of Europe.

You want to find out why 99.9% of all wars were and are being waged, follow the money trails. You get to the big concentrations of money on either side, you find the people who put nations at war. The others are usually religious conflicts - but even in those, someone usually stands to make a profit.