Female VFers (was Zero-chan's Nagoya ...)

Gentleman, we have an example of communication breaking due to a deliberate ignoring of the context.

GP, if you reread my post, you will realize that I do not claim to be miserable. My post was more or less directed to the two gentlemen (tzgorr and lau_fists to be exact)'s posts about their wish to convert their female companions (or young, good looking general female population) into dedicated VF4 players. (Or 70's KF movie fans, Hellboy comicbook fans, or whatever their interest du jour happens to be.)

While I must assume they are not deadly serious about what they said, it's hard to determine where jovial extrapolation ends and sincere wish starts. So let me just say again. Reread my post with this context/topic in mind. I never claimed to be miserable myself.

And GE: Reread the partical quote you made: I said "uninterested" by definition anyone who continues to read this thread is "interested" in the topic now being discussed. This thread started innocently enough with Zero-chan sharing her experience in a new place. Now someone just had to attach a special significance to Zero-chan's gender and turn this thread into something else. My post was mainly directed to those two gentlemen. I am hardly addressing topics "uninterested" by them.

Don't think you are being a smartass by throwing my line back at me when you don't even have a courtesy to quote whole sentence, much less consider the context.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

oh I still think I can qualify for "smart ass" at least as I define the term.

I really was just throwing rocks (check the sig) but I chose to do so because you almost always sound like you're on a tear. You use the word stupid 3 times in a small post and later say that no one will fault (essentially a weakness or failing) their choice to pursue a stupid hobby. isn't stupidity a weakness or failing? and aren't you faulting that choice by applying that judgement to it?

Then you say, don't force uninterested people to "see your way". which regardless of what you're earlier rant was on is essentially what you are trying to do. Why should the statement only be applied to Tzgorr1? Was Tzgorr1 interested in women playing games? You betcha...it comes across a little too well. Was he interested in what Hyun thinks Freud thinks of him being interested in women playing games. I don't know for sure but I'll make a bet with you on the answer if you want.

You want to take someone to town based on your rules, you'd better for damn sure those rules don't stop at your own door. Private Law is something we have a little too much of as it is.

GP: that's about as creative as it gets.

GE

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Well, neither of us suffer from hindering lack of intellectual capacity this could go on forever easily. But let me say this. You yourself said that once you make something public you are subject to public scrutiny. People in this thread including myself are not exceptions. You may not be "interested" in certain opinions but if it relates to the very thing you posted you can't say it's non-relevant.

On top of that, a lot of VF old farts such as myself suffer from a form of "Hyper-Irony." Rich (Bugle) is the pinnacle of the hyper-irony. All things have been said and done. We are jaded. All that's left to do is mock. This attitude forms part of so called "post-modern culture" "generation-X culture" or all those zillion "parody" movies that have been made lately. You can't hardly have a comedy these days without some form of mocking of what has been done before. No authority, be it politics, religion, science, whatever is free from this mocking. Even Catholics like Kevin Smith mocks Cathlic church (perhaps not in a malicious way). Matt Groening mocks his own medium in Simpsins. Woody Allen mocks his own medium. Studio Gainax released a mockumentary of anime Otakus who lose touch with reality.

Compaling about Jacky--done there done that. Wishing for some hot girls playing VF--done there done that. Even discussing strategy for new version becomes old soon enough. While I need no further examples than Rich or many oldies who no longer post to illustrate "hyper-irony" that comes after being jaded, you yourself are not free from urge to exercize this "hyper-irony." You pretty much admitted your reply to me was something like that.

Calling VF4 or other male hobbies stupid, by a fellow geek such as myself, should be understood as "hyper-irony." I am first to admit that playing VF4 ultimately leads to no productive actitivities. It may be a little different if it was like Starcraft or Doom where you can earn thousands of dollars in tournament. But that's hardly a case. There is no "rational" behind practicing this hobby so I consider this "stupid"--so are the many different hobbies practiced by other people. But then are the humans rational creatures? Just don't assume your reality survives the litmus test of the general human consensus, that was one of my point.

You talk about private law but you sound as if I believe I operate under a hypocritical "law." I don't believe so, not any more than you do. We all live in our own set of reality. "History" is a set of lies historians agreed upon and "real world" is merely a set of lies common people agreed upon.

Anyway, may we develop the consensus that there was not much difference in my post and your post in this thread, in terms of intention? That both of us can be subject of hyper-irony?

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

"I am first to admit that playing VF4 ultimately leads to no productive actitivities. It may be a little different if it was like Starcraft or Doom where you can earn thousands of dollars in tournament. But that's hardly a case. There is no "rational" behind practicing this hobby so I consider this "stupid"--so are the many different hobbies practiced by other people."

Ack. Sorry dude but group me in this catagory. I have PLENTY of other hobbies as I'm sure most of us do. I see sun light, enjoy (and can get) female companionship, read books, etc..blah bleh.

I don't give a flying fuck what the general public feels about people doing something they like. (so long as it isnt raping 10 year old girls or something)

Edit: Took out one comment as so not to sound like a complete total PSA.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Sure you do, if I could edit I might have replaced "produtive actitivities" with something like "productive end" or "productive result." You live productive life only because you do somthing other than VF. And well, maybe not you but apparently people do care about what other people think. Otherwise we will not have threads about people wanting to have hot female players (Who cares what they are and what they look as long as we have players who can give challenge.) Or people gossiping endlessly about some "star" players on the other side of the globe whom we never met and probably never will. And yeah, we wish what we do is something "cool,"

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

the following is to be considered opinionated and therefore to have no real bearing on the lives and ideologies of those who read it. and sometimes its unclear to myself if I'm responding to an observation or a belief so If anything, its fun after a certain fashion and boring after another.

I have no problem with reaching consensus. I consider most of what you said to be true.

I think the notion of irony is problematic for various reasons and I’m not at all sure that it is a condition that can be modified. Much like the idea of something being unique; it either is or it isn’t…there is no room for “very unique†or “sort of unique†and I don’t believe there is room for Meta or Hyper Irony. It is merely irony and the term Hyper Irony seems to be a designation assigned by someone who thinks what he or she is doing transcends the mundane usage. “Irony is so overdone; I know this and am smarter than that so what I am doing must be meta or hyper irony. Problem solved, bring on the next paradoxâ€Â. Just a thought, however, hardly anything but.

Also, I don’t think the world has approached the point of the well being so dry that all that is left to do is comment on what’s been done and in such a way that they can only comment in the form of parody or mocking. I think that is the all too common trap and one left unexplored. There’s a world out there that hasn’t been found or expressed properly, it is past time to create new vocabularies and tools and not deride the ones that got us this far. Life in theory wastes life in practice.

Which brings us to the notion of production. Island realities like the ones you refer to bring differing ideas of value…no rational and productive assume some sort of pre-judgment which can only exist within those types of internal realities you talked about. Again, having the cake and eating the cake is difficult because either we create certain realities by merely agreeing for formalities sake or there are certain realities that affect and guide us independent of our own thoughts and biases. It can only be on or off not existant based on convenience, I think.

GE
<font color="white">"oh he's cool"
"dude, are you being sarcastic?"
"I don't even know anymore" </font color>

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

I could read this for hours. Do either of you take requests? How about an essay on the nature of flaming? This particular back'n'forth is entertaining because you guys don't waste time with "he said she said" or come to a readily coherent point regarding whatever the original topic is.

Which isn't to say nobody makes a point, I see several points here made about random things.

The usual course of a flame seems to be:
1. innocuously ignorant comment
2. jumping-down-throat post, generally with a tone that is violently caustic or sarcastic.
3. indignant defense of original idea by random backup
4. snottily phrased backups of caustic post
and so on.

This one sort of broke down at number 3, I'm still sort of curious as to what's wrong with wishful thinking about a vf-fan girlfriend (or wishing the pool of available girls was more vf-oriented). The idea that girls aren't normally going to be interested in VF is probably true. But why shouldn't guys try to foster this interest in girls (or shouldn't wish it occurred naturally)? The idea that girls 'shouldn't' be interested in VF or anime or comics or whatever, that isn't hyun's creation, but it is an artificial construct... isn't it? Or am I gonna hear girls aren't genetically suited to video games?

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

CreeD, how can you miss one of the points as a fellow old fart. This topic has been, just like pretty much anything else, beating a dead horse. I remember people rambling incoherently about their suspicious fantasy of getting beaten by some drop dead gorgeous girl in arcade all the way from the RGVA days. I saw and played against numerous female VF players (well, okay less than ten) and for me novelty factor is gone. At least my ironical post brought some different perspective from the involved parties. Still don't get why the subject got shifted? (Of course, the subjects of the oldies becoming jaded and living to flame the newbies is, of course, becoming a dead horse subject too, but I hope I brought some other perspective.)

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Well, the 'why' of the subject shifting isn't so important to me... it's just that the subject got shifted without you really having to defend your point.

I mean there are reasons to not believe a girl should be introduced to VF, or that it's a waste of time... for example jason says it fucks up gatherings, trying to teach a girl is like having a bunch of skilled players rotating in a group, and then a scrub jumps in. And he also points out that the teaching process sucks - she complains if you kick her ass. If you go easy she complains you're going easy.

Me, I'm not worried about gatherings so much, so if you ignore the effect a girl has on gatherings, why is it wrong to introduce her to a hobby of yours, whether it's VF or knitting?

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

CreeD, reread my post and I have nothing to defend. I am sure there are female VF players out there who can kick our combined asses. But again they play because they like it. Not to make any of us happy. And obviously those two gentlemen had little luck "introducing" their hobbies to girls. But fantasy continues. If you get one more VF player, good, if not, just think of how you would feel if your GF never gives up trying to convince to love NSync or whatever. I am sure there are some guys who like NSync and into girl hobbies and so what. Just do not assume it must have broad cross gender appeal. If you know how to create cross gender appeal you should go to marketing instead of wasting time here. Why do I have to reiterate this whole point over? And AFAIK, you are a living proof of what can go wrong when you try to "introduce" a girl to your hobby. What part of "this whole thing has been discussed to death" you don't understand? No rebuttal has been given to these core points and there was nothing for me to defend. You are only twisting what I said.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

laff, ok, first of all, you might think a firm command of the language makes you a perfect poster... but here's a tip for posting:

Calling people stupid, repeatedly, especially when they don't deserve it, makes you a poor poster.
Saying "you don't get what I'm saying and I have nothing to explain" accomplishes nothing in a discussion.
Accusing me of 'twisting' your words... to put it lightly, that's counterproductive. Like I have some personal vendetta against Hyun and I have nothing better to do than wait for you to post, then find some subtle way to distort the meaning you try to get across. I have a life Hyun, I don't get my kicks picking fights with underhanded tactics, though I do enjoy a good message board discussion from time to time.


With all that out of the way, there's a key point we didn't clarify - you said "If you have a stupid hobby that you enjoy, just enjoy. No one is going to fault you. Just don't make other people miserable by trying to force uninterested party to see your way, especially your love interest. " ... that implies (to me) that you shouldn't try even ONCE to make a female try VF, saying it's "chauvinistic" to do so. Then later you say "And obviously those two gentlemen had little luck "introducing" their hobbies to girls. But fantasy continues." which implies someone stubbornly trying to introduce girls to VF over and over even after one or more failures.

Are you saying it should never be done period because girls in general aren't going to be interested?

Or do you mean it shouldn't be done IF the girl indicates she's not interested (the equivalent of the girl dragging you to a meg ryan movie even if you've hated every meg ryan movie you've ever seen?)

What it sounds like you're saying in the original post is don't EVER try to get ANY girl interested in VF... if she had an inclination to learn it, she would have by now. To me that attitude would define chauvinistic, but I'm interested in being clear on what's being said before I start calling names and slinging accusations.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Yes, CreeD, I got what you were infering from my post. You clarified what you were infering once and you don't have to clarify again. And yet I waste more space by reiterating that what you infer is just twisting what I say. I will again reiterate: I mean what I say. What you think I "imply" is your own interpretation. Clear? I thought I made extreme examples to distance myself from those "moderate" cases you bring up. To make you happy, I will say this: Yeah, what you say is perfectly harmless. I will agree. If I must defend I must defend myself against things I didn't say. But let me ask you this: the whole point of bringing Freud. Why?

Are you introducing girls/women to VF4 because of some selfless altruistic belief that their life would be richer and more fulfilling if they played VF4 hardcore? Or is Freudian idea right? It's not either -or question, but personally, knowing what VF addiction can do to you, I would have reservation about doing this to my worst enemy. I don't think this is a pointless question to ask yourself. (As a side note, I am saying all these from a POV of person who went on a date with a girl who, without my prior knowledge, played VF.)

Lastly, I haven't called anyone stupid. And I have no reason to prove myself "perfect poster" or such. Again according to an immortal quote: winning net argument is like winning special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded. I didn't mention explicitly but this is yet another life wasting stupid hobby for me. More useless than playing VF4 for real. But again, humans are not rational creatures.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Clear?

You still manage to say a lot and sound indignant without saying anything. I see "Yeah, what you say is perfectly harmless. I will agree. "
That doesn't really advance the original question.
I asked "do you mean no girl should ever be introduced to VF because it's a waste of time to try" or "you shouldn't keep trying if your first attempt fails." To which you answered... "yes" ...?
I don't know what "I agree" is referring to... my harmless posting style? My harmless example? Harmless point?


Are you introducing girls/women to VF4 because of some selfless altruistic belief that their life would be richer and more fulfilling if they played VF4 hardcore?

This is the key point that I think you could have expressed better - guys don't introduce girls to VF because they want to enrich the girl's life, they do it so they can drag the girl into their group and feel like they belong, or feel like they aren't weird.

Expressing your idea with thirty extra words and throwing in the name of any famous dead psychologist doesn't really support your point, it just makes it sound more pretentious and cluttered. A lot of unnecessary thrashing could have been avoided.

Lastly, I haven't called anyone stupid.

GE already covered this one for me. Semantics.

winning net argument is like winning special olympics.
I didn't mention explicitly but this is yet another life wasting stupid hobby for me. More useless than playing VF4 for real.

By acting ashamed of your hobbies and disparaging them you also insult those who are not embarrassed by the same hobbies. Clearly if you don't take your writing or playing seriously, I shouldn't either. But still, you say arguing on the net is retarded... I disagree, and secretly you do too. If you thought it was THAT stupid and embarrassing, you wouldn't have bothered (several times now). Using the "arguing online is retarded" line is a copout. It's a cheap 'fuck you' that the loser of a debate can toss out so that he can retreat with his face intact.

If it's retarded, don't reply. I don't worry about whether someone will see it as retarded...I feel there's nothing unworthy or simpleminded about wanting to make a point and wanting to be understood.

Anyway, enough of that. Back to the original point. If someone's reason for trying to teach a girl VF is to feel more comfortable with himself and his hobbies... that to me isn't a 'stupid' reason. If anyone's insecure about their hobbies, it's the guy pointing the finger.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

CreeD, I think arguing online is retarded. I do not find it embarrassing however. While I do not always take my own post that seriously, I find the challenge, (not necessarily value). Wasting your life away playing video games is retarded. I do not find it embarrassing again. Also it has been a very long time since I ever felt I was "losing" argument and this time it's no exception. (I wouldn't say I am winning, but I don't think I am losing.)

And so let me make it extra clear: You are right? Okay? I am not sure where the disagreement lies and what you need to prove. Not so altruistic effort to obtain narcistic group identification is also part of being an irrational human being. We seem to have reached the consensus. If you meant to prove I need better communication skills, tell me something I don't know. (I was born with speech impairment.) Maybe I don't care as much.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures/ FLAMEEE WARS!!!*

*$5.00 entry, drink not included. Hyun I believe you just insulted the entire gaming community. I'm sorry, but I resent that remark. I don't waste my time. I believe that you are buying too much into the assumption of what people are thinking of you. Relax and enjoy what you do. (so long as it isn't raping 10 year old girls or something..)

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

Man this goofy thread got stupidly long while I slumbered. Overall, I still don't see Hyun's basis for posting in the first place. As it's been said before, having the chics around is a legitamite request. I definitely won't be attending your man-girl pillow-fight VF party.

lau_fists, GE, etc.:
There are plenty of 'girlfriends' here that are accompanied by their boyfriends while they play VF, or whatever game. The chics run off and play pachinko, or print club, or some other chic-based entertainment. There's nothing wrong in having them try out your hobbies, which apparantly result in you getting flamed by someone w/ nothing better to do than make up some goofy words to boost his ego.

I'm out -- got a plane to catch.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures/ FLAMEEE WARS!!!*

Just to make things clear Andrew: Nobody told me that playing game is waste of time. In fact most people around have been supportive of my hobby. A lot of people I know play game of a form or another. And you know I play games. And guess what I don't really care what other people think. I think playing game is a waste, and that's my thought, not assumption of what other people think. If you think it's an insult, you don't have to care what I say.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures

this thread has failed to entertain me. come on! less compromise, more insult hurling.

 

Re: Zero-chan's Nagoya Virtua Adventures/ FLAMEEE WARS!!!*

Hyun I dont understand..... why play then? You are contridicting yourself and it reads like you view the cup as half empty. I don't assume this is the case, but that's what it reads like.