Fighting styles and representation in vf

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Shadowdean, Oct 1, 2001.

  1. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    OK...this is very rough and I will try and flesh this out later.
    Lau: Due to the fact most of his attacks are knife hand and punches its easy to classify his style as southern chinese - maybe even wing-chung due to the use of center line attacks in almost everything. If you consider the fact that his knife hands are almost always done going into a longer stance, or from a crouch, move onto a more specific classification of long hand, who's styles are more northern. His back drop throw can be seen in modern Shan-shau and Tai-chi-yang (though the Tai-Chi yang style is more of a "scoop" motion and the opponent is dropped towards the sides, not backwards). Hrmm..I gotta goto my books and see if anything more accuratly matches up.
    Jacky/Sarah: THis is not JKD..forget everything else - they do NOT follow any of the basic precepts of this training. There are no "stop hits." This is where you might kick the shin of someone or punch the shoulder area to stop a punch and then launch your attack....the limb you use to stop the hit is often kept there for a moment so you can keep contact and thus keep control. The closest thing that comes to this is Jacky's skipping low roundhouse that I've seen in the game. His back fist is a nice lead in, but he does not have a finger jab and neither does Sarah - another basic attack from jkd. Kick-flips...please...even bruce lee only did that once in the Enter the Dragon fight scene. They have no bob and weave manuevers. To me, their style is just a combination of punch and kicks...
    Shun: Ok, so he has a FEW drunken style moves offensivly, however, he does not have any of the evasive manuevers from drunken kung fu, such as "lifting the keg" or leaning back to drink and then lunging forward to strike, or putting back the bottle, which sould be a series of defensive blocks. Ugh...more on this later also.
    Jeffery: He has no ground game, something NO pankration artist be without. He picks them up? A pankration would proceed to pound the living crap out of them on the ground or go for a lock. The hell stab is actually a technique, there is even a set of statues illustrating this technique. 2 men got into a fight, they couldn't beat each other..so each agreed to hit each other once. The first guy balled up his fist and punche..dazing his opponent. The opponent told the guy to lift his arm. THe man then put his hand in a knife hand type configuration, and slammed it through the guys ribs. There is a bunch of info here http://www.channel1.com/pankration
    Aoi: She is actually, from my experince, pretty close to Akido/akijujistue - however more of her attacks should start with a side step or redict. Palm strikes should be compose most of her striking techniques.
    Akira: THis is not bagua - Bagua is a circular, soft style, certainly not what our headbanded hero does.Bakwa is more the style he does, if you've ever seen this form done, it consist of a LOT of stomping and short, powerful attacks.
    Kage: really, does ANYTHING need to be said about this guy? LOL
    Vanessa: no ground game...nuff said..she is some sort of glorified kickboxer from what I've read.
    More to come...



    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  2. Yamcha

    Yamcha Well-Known Member

    I'm just gonna comment on Aoi since Aikido is the only one of the bunch I have studied in depth (and still learning). Pure aikido is obviously near impossible to implement since it never initiates by attacking, however strikes are used only to get an opponent off balance or redirect their attention (this was mentioned in an Aoi FAQ I remember reading which applied this concept to VF, atemi, or striking to distract the opponent and then follow up with a throw or something). I can't really comment on the jujitsu aspect of her style either, but most of her throws and reversal are definitely real techniques that I've seen or practiced. Only the execution would never work, for example, her FC throw would never work in real life as done in VF, it would have to be done from a standing position so she can turn and lower her weight onto the arm, and also the opponent would have to be attacking since if they were standing they could just lock their strength and lower their weight to keep from being unbalanced. Her regular PG throw would also be difficult to do from standing, usually the opponent would have to be guided around first so that he/she is off balance then one would turn into the opponent with the entire upper body to throw them.
     
  3. Trigger

    Trigger Active Member

    Nice analysis,Shadow dean but..
    Jacky/Sarah: I don't see why their style shouldn't be JKD since the art(jkd) itself is a combination of fighting styles. To be precise, jkd is a free style fighting and can evolve endlessly without any restriction. They don't have to act exactly like their grand master(Bruce) to be a jkd practitioner.

    Vanessa: She has got Muay Thai(Thai Boxing) fighting stance though she doesn't represent Muay Thai art very accurately. But I don't think she is a kickboxer 'cos she uses a lot of knee and elbow attacks. You may see that they are her primary attacks.

    Akira: You're right about this guy. His art isn't Ba-gua, deffinitely not. It's "Ba-chi chuan"(eight ultimate fist). If you ever read a Japanese comic that has leading Char. named "Kenji" who ,later, went to China and learned kung-fu from many masters ,you will know a lot of things about Ba-chi. I think the comic I just mentioned about is the reason why this art became famous in Japan. Some of my Japanese friends know it but, ironicly, I believe it was never popular in main-land China.

    Trigger/versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  4. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Okay, this is all second hand information from Jemin (one of the VF old skoolers), re: BaJiQuan. But since he doesn't post here, I thought I'd share the info (some of which may well be erroneus, please feel free to correct):

    Supposedly this form of martial arts was popularized (developed? refined?) by the Imperial Guards of the Last Emperor, Shih Huang Ti, who were all BaJiQuan practicitioners (I'm just going to abbreviate it to BJQ from now on).

    BJQ is a "wai gong" art emphasizing short, sudden movements, particularly focusing on palm/elbow/shouder strikes; as opposed to "nei gong" forms such as TaiChi and Aikido. Consequently, a lot of time is spent on hardening the arms, hands and shoulder, deadening the nerves there etc. just like Thai kickboxers repeatedly kick trees and other hard objects to practice.

    BJQ practioners learn how to fall on their backs/shoulders, at first from a standing position, but later from heights, in order to toughen their backs for the various "kao" moves, like "TieShanKao" (bodycheck: b,f,f P K), "YanZiChuanLing" (reverse bodycheck: b,df P G)... supposedly the serious practioners also constantly scrape their backs against a rough wall to further toughen the skin and deaden any pain they might feel. Even the grapple/throws also rely on "wai gong", as evidenced by moves such as "XinYiBa" (db,f P G) where Akira pulls the opponent towards himself and then rams his shoulder into him.

    Unfortunately, like other "wai gong" forms (e.g. karate), BJQ tends to have negative side effects on practitioners who are getting old, because of the hard-hitting nature of the art. Supposedly one of the BJQ masters in China managed to introduce a "nei gong" aspect into BJQ, and became even more deadly as he got older -- BJQ could now be used as an assassin's art (e.g. channeling a palm strike towards an enemy's chest with no resultant exterior damage, but ruptured internal organs).

    Other notable tidbits: supposedly there is a temple in China where some of the most closely guarded BJQ moves and secrets reside, the floor of the temple's main hall has little potholes all over the place, which are the result of the constant stomping that is associated with BJQ (the thunder sound that Akira makes with many of his moves). The stomping is not part of the move per se, but is a byproduct of the quick, hard-hitting nature of the attack, and also serves to intimidate the enemy.

    Not sure how BJQ was ported over to Japan; most probably some practitioners left China to take up residence in Japan. Supposedly there are several Japanese videotapes of BJQ practitioners in action; Jemin has a couple of them I think. (Incidentally, that's why Jemin has played Akira hardcore since VF1; he's been practicing the basics of BJQ in real life for awhile now...)

    In Singapore, for some reason or other, it is extremely difficult to find BJQ schools, apart from the severely watered-down versions. Not sure if this is because of the closely guarded nature of the art, or because the Singapore government frowns on *deadly* martial arts (I think ninjitsu is banned). In California, however, there are a couple of BJQ schools that are truer to form to the original.

    Okay, that's all I know. All second-hand stuff, so any mistakes in the above info is purely mine.


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  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    This is some interesting shiat guys, keep 'em coming!
     
  6. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    JKD is NOT just a training utility. Jun-Fan kickboxing actually has a system worked out with Kali/eskrima, kickboxing, and chop-sau (sticky hands). Even JDK elements teaches some basic attacks to build a foundation, attacks which are NOT seen in the game, such as stop hids, elbows (like a thi-fighters), cadance, aba aaa, aab and broken rythem attacking....I Could go on for a LONG time....

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  7. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah, for Vanessa - Kickboxings main attacks
    1) Shin Roundhouse to the siatic-nerve, to stomach, to head.
    2) Knee to head in clinch, knee to side of body in clinch.
    3) Elbow to side of head.
    Do NOT confuse american kickboxing and Muay-tai kickboxing....

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  8. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    With regard to the Bryants I'm with Trigger. JKD hasn't got a "look", I believe it possess "concepts". And because a practitioner should welcome anything that will improve his or herself two peers can potentially look completely different. As long as the technique achieves the desired effect the technique is irrelevant. Since I don't use Jacky I can't really comment on him but while Sarah may not have a finger jab, she does have her Chop (df+P) which is a great poke and hits high, out prioritising most techniques aimed at her.

    Within her Flamingo Stance her Low Kick (d+K) has great priority and can hold back an opponent till you can do her powerful High Snap Kick (f+K) which will stun the opponent once it hits and allow for a combo. Again back to the Flamingo, Sarah can launch a Chop or punch variant from the stance with no recovery what so ever. So, while she may not have a canned combo that will replicate the high low style attacks you describe as key JKD concepts she can in theory chain low kick high punch/chop form the Flamingo.

    As for the Kickflip, common mate, this is a game remember, they look brilliant regardless of the difficulty in performing them in reality and add flair to the characters who can perform them.

    Adio.
     
  9. Yamcha

    Yamcha Well-Known Member

    So which one is she supposed to be anyway? AM2 says its Muay Thai but from what I've seen it's not a very accurate representation.
     
  10. Trigger

    Trigger Active Member

    Very nice indepth indeed. From now on I'll use BJQ after your term.
    You're quite right that BJQ used to be wai gong(external kung-fu) before until a very famous chinese master tranformed it into nei gong. His name is Li Shu Wen(Lee Cho Bun-Japanese). He was a hot head fighter, so hot that his master disliked his and refused to pass the secret of BJQ to him. He had to learn by himself. The way was to chalenge other BJQ fighters in real fights and learn their skills. This may sound incredible but it's a true story. Li learned the art with his blood. This is why his BJQ is different from the traditional style.His master never taught him any secert of wai-gong BJQ. So he didn't know and practice technique that hardening palm and body. He kept practicing very hard as time elapsed. When he get old,his art was completely transformed into nei gong style. No more using violent muscle strength but use qi gong that he had developed in his body for all his life. In a nutshell, he shifted level of his art highly until it's close to the level of Hsing-I Quan. He was said to be invincible. Most opponents were killed within a single attack.The art he developed is simple but deadly. Before he died (by being poisoned), he had many students. His last student lived until around 1985. He joined the army and work as a hitman and spy.Later he moved to Taiwan and passed his art to many students there until he died.

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  11. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Golly, Hardcore! And you were that student in Taiwan right?

    Adio.
     
  12. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Trigger! Good stuff...

    A little slow at work today, so I did a Google search and came up with the following:

    http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/2457/baji.html
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajiart.html>http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajiart.html</A>


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  13. Trigger

    Trigger Active Member

    Wow! Thanks, FeixaQ for great links. Hmm..very educational.

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  14. Trigger

    Trigger Active Member

    Actually i'm a Thai and i often get confused when people call Muay Thai, a kickboxing.

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  15. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Again, going back to the Bryants I forgot to mention the Shin Slicer (D+K+G) which is a move dedicated to that part of the opponents body. The move while weak can be performed some distance from the opponent and if it hits as a regular attack will give a little stun though you're almost guaranteed to get low thrown. It may not be very effective in the game but, it requires you to intercept the opponents attack in which case they will then crumble under their own weight. That sounds like JKD to me.

    Adio.
     
  16. gribbly

    gribbly Well-Known Member

    >the floor of the temple's main hall has little potholes

    It doesn't have to be a stomping art to do this... I've been to the Shaolin temple in Henan and seen the flagstones of one of the halls worn into hollows from centuries of training on the same spot.

    There's also a wall with a dark patch on it that is supposed to be the shadow of Satyamuni, who meditated there for nine years.

    grib.
     
  17. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    OK...JKD by nature does not have a "Look", but it works at refining the actions to least amount of motion - echonomy of motion is one of the principle foundations of JKD, and sure as HELL we don't really see that in spinning back fists, no whip jabs, quick jabs, power jabs....I can go on and on and on...I appreciate the logic your using, but ANYBODY who has trained in JKD will have some basic attacks they will learn...just like every boxer is different, they still use the same tools..

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  18. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    I think she was supposed to be both Thai and brazillian Ju-jistue or vale-tudo...but personally, I think she fails miserably at both...as said with Jeffery - there is NO ground game...

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     
  19. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    > Kage: really, does ANYTHING need to be said about this guy? LOL

    yes...he is a ninja. suzuki isn't stupid. the TFT is *intentionally* incongruous. i remember reading a bit about ninjutsu in feudal japan, and there was a line which summed up well why the TFT is in VF. i can't remember the line exactly, but suffice it to say that part of ninja lore is that they were able to do the absolute impossible. this notion is, of course, put into form with the TFT.

    i don't know much about martial arts but most of his other moves, save for the ones he got in vf3 (and maybe the heelkick) are very down to earth and quite realistic looking.

    --
    "What we got here is a failure to communicate..."
     
  20. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    "TFT is *intentionally* incongruous"
    that is why I do not even address him...most of the Ninja stuff was aimed at just killing someone rather quickly...his moves LOOK stealthy and whatnot..but if you do some reading, not really ninja..but its cool just cause he is a "fun" character, not nessisarily being a representative of the arts.

    "Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu
     

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