Fighting styles and representation in vf

Ninja, supposedly have explosive legs power. That's why Kage jumps higher and can do TFT with his powerful legs.

Talking about Manga "Kenji" In that manga there is the Grand Master Liu Yun Qiao, his history can be found in

www.bajimen.com

He supposedly is the last student of the famous Li ShuWen (Manga Kenji also have lifestory of Li Shu Wen). Li Shu Wen is supposedly the person that turn BajiQuan into an internal art. In the manga, he can kill by just touching the person. Li Shu Wen is also a character in fighting games Ergeiz.

Akira's BajiQuan, is actually not Lee Shu Wen BajiQuan. Like Karate, Tai Chi, BajiQuan also have different school, but you know its BajiQuan, by its elbow strike, and Palm Strike.

Other videogames/manga characters that have shown to used BajiQuan

1. Ryo from ShenMue
2. Paul from Tekken, (Though he looks uncoordinated)
3. Ranma, (maybe because Kenji and Ranma share the same publisher)


Edit: Also forgot the origin of Baji Quan, according to the Kenji Manga is from Persian, so its a Muslim Martial Arts in the beginning. Other noted Martial Arts that appear in that Manga is Praying Mantis(Lion), Shin I(Genfu). Shin I especially featured in that Manga as a Muslim Fighting Arts. As well as Chen Style Tai Chi, which I practice

I don't know how accurate the Manga is, but the writers seems to do his research well.

Interesting stuff huh ??

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by VIVI on 10/02/01 03:51 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Is "ninjitsu" really a martial art? I thought the term "ninja" was used to designate assassins who don't even have to be clothed in a robe and mask. I.e. isn't our concept of the ninja and ninjutsu basically modern inventions? I'm not really about all of this, maybe someone knows for sure.

 

wow!! i was right!!!

about 3 yrs ago, i told my friends that i bet in the next vf, there will be a shaolin monk and a kick boxer (or boxer)...

gee what are the odds eh??

 

Ninjutsu, would be classified as martial arts. As Ninjutsu was developed during/around Edo era or even before, where they required to be a spy for information or to assasinate someone.

Assassinating, the top man was very powerful tool to disable a unit. No leader, there would be chaos. So these Ninja ussually sent and train especially to infiltrate Japanese castle with motive of information gatherer or assassin.

Ice-9. you are right, Hollywood gives Ninja a bad image, when there was a big Ninja fad in Holywood during the late 80s.

VF Kage however, is not fighting using Ninjutsu, he uses something else. Most of Ninjutsu technique has to do with stealth, not the actual fighting it self.

I remember, in one of the interview, Yu Suzuki was asked if Kage is using Ninjutsu, he said than he (Kage) would appear out of no where and take out the opponent, and that wouldn't be fair. So he said he was using something else, ju-jitsu I belive. Ju-jitsu is very broad description.

 

I would still call Akira Bagua due to his stomping and very short, compact attacks..but that's just me..

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

I thought Ryo was Hazuki-ryu Jujitsu, although there are definitely BaJiQuan elements in there. And I believe Ranma is supposed to be kenpo, I don't remember seeing much in the way of him doing anything Akira-like.

 

Michael(Tekken) ,Athena(KOF) and that Sakura-rival girl(SFzero3)are also some other game characters that use some of BJQ techniques. Look how influential BJQ is in Japan.

Kenji's writer(the story teller not illustrator) is also a kung-fu master. He went to Taiwan to learn kung-fu for 3 years. He met most of the real-exist characters in the manga. Even learn from them. In other words,Kenji is a summary of his experience during years on the quest of martial art.

Trigger/versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Shadowdean,

If you have seen Pakua Chuan, in action, than you will know that Akira is no where closed, First of all he doesn't Walk the Circle, which Pakua Chuan practicioner does, and his stance is very different. Actually in VF4, Akira stance look closer to an actual PaChi Chuan practicioner. Also stomping is not the characteristics of PaKua or PaChi as you claimed, many other Chinese Martial Arts have stomping, including Shin I, Chen Tai Chi second form.

If anyone wonder, what is Pikua Chuan, explained in some of the link, Ling from Tekken 3, 4 and Helena from DOA2,3 uses that art.

Yamcha,
Yeah Ryo uses Ju Jitsu most of the time, but Baji is the main Martial Arts in Shenmue Saga. Ranma did one of the Baji Form during one of the Opening from the Anime, I think its the opening with a song title "Red Dress" (or Shoes/ or something or rather. Can't remember)

Trigger,
Yeah, other that uses Baji, including the Twin in SF3. There are others, but I can't remember their names. Long from Bloody Roar uses Shin I, which can look similar to Baji.
Thanks for the Kenji info.

 

VIVI, I am not talking about Pakua Chuan, I am talking about BAGUA, NOT PAKUA - Bagua is a VERY different art..hope that closes things up...

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

What you're describing perfectly mirrors Bakuan Chan, originated by Lo Wei Chuang in the mid 1700s. The 'exhaling stomp', or 'KiPei' was a trademark of the long form of this art, which then evolved to Koshanken Kua and later to the mantis forms of Pakua Guaong <sp?>.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Ninjitsu, from what I've heard, is a style of fighting against impossible odds. So basically anything goes. A ninja usually was sent to assassinate somebody important and would usually have to go through a lot of guards and such in a stealthy manner. Thus, there really isn't a specific style called "ninjitsu" more like a philosopy of fighting, sort of like jeet kune do. Most techniques used by ninjas were basically karate techniques used by samurais of the same age, just applied to 20 to 1 odds instead of 1 to 1 odds. Anyways, isn't Kage's style jujitsu?

 

Oh right I remember now, in the second season intro (I forget the name of the song too) where he's doing his form in front on the tidal wave on the beach. Haven't seen him use it much in the series though.

 

Shadowdean,

I am sorry, PakuaChuan and BaguaQuan I thought its just a different writing you used. After all BajiQuan, can be written as PaChiChuan as well. But the pronounciation is the same.

So tell me who is some of the master of Bagua, as I am never aware of it and would certainly would like to know more about this arts. A Chinese characters of it would be nice as well. As well as the whole philosopy behind it.

As to either Akira martial arts is BaGua or Baji the answer is simple enough, in his data sheet, his art in Japanese is Hakkyokuken. If you read the manga "Kenji" the whole story is about Kenji ( a high school kid) learning "Hakkyokuken" other arts. Hakkyokuken is clear enough in the story as referring to BajiQuan. Pa Kua Chuan or Ba Gua Quan is also in that story and is not referred to Hakkyokuken, its refer to something different. Also the writter linked Hakkyokuken to Chinese master Lee Shu Wen, which practiced BajiQuan and nothing else. So Hakkyokuken is defenitely BajiQuan.

I hoped you are not still following the mistakes of VF2 FAQ for stating that Akira arts is BaGua Quan ? are you ?

 

Uhhh... Shadowdean, Ba Gua Zhang, Ba Gua Quan, Pa Kua Zhang, and Pa Kua Chuan are all the same arts, just spelled differently. VIVI is 100% correct. Ba Kua in Japanese is called "Ha Ke Sho" meaning: eight diagram palm. Ba Ji (or Pa Chi also the same thing with different spelling) is called "Ha Kyoku Ken" meaning: eight extremes fist. That style has a lot of close attacks, and stomping, Ba Gua on the other hand is known for it's evasive manuevers and circular walking... check out Tekken for Ling XiaoYu for Ba Gua. I lived in Japan, and I speak Japanese, and I have studied Chinese martial arts for years... I can provide you with loads of evidence to back VIVI or myself if you are still reluctant to believe the truth, I can even send you video of real practitioners. Hope that closes things up.

 

As for Venessa, the data said she uses "Vale-Tudo"

I am not aware that Vale Tudo is actually an art. I thought it was a competition held in Brazil, its like UFC, but the people that fought in there look more fit than the one in UFC. And the fight are more exciting than UFC.

So I guess Vanessa art would be anything goes of sort, and she used to fight in "Vale Tudo" Tournament. I think one of the Garcie is supposed to be undefeated in Vale Tudo tournament. If you watched him fight, its pretty impressive, the way he does his lock.

Hey Curse,
Is Hakkyokuken popular in Japan ? Do you have any Link to good video of BajiQuan ?

 

That's right. Vale Tudo describes a tournament style, and a fighting stlye, but basically means no rules.

I think for VF, Vanessa is a good representation of that kind of fighting, but does lack the ground game, as do Wolf, Jeffry, Aoi, Vanessa...

I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I've decided that my opinion as to why AM2 has decided to stay away from a complex ground-fighting system is two-fold:

first, as anyone who plays VF or Shen Mue will tell you, Suzuki has a China/Kung Fu fetish from hell. I mean, Kung Fu was the one thing VF already had plenty of, then in 4, we get MORE Kung Fu. Shen Mue is the same way, espescially 2: kung fu/kenpo nation. I don't think Yu's interested in mount punches or leg/arm locks and chokes at all, really. I think he likes the beautiful side of classical martial arts.

secondly, I think they've stayed away from it to control game speed. Vf has always been a fast-paced, standing fighting game. In situations where there were holds that led to grapples (wolf's catch), you have to input commands quickly and accurately, it's like escaping a throw from a special position. By contrast, Tekken and Doa's multi-throw grapple/tackle system, and UFC's as well to some extent, allow the defender to mash buttons over and over hoping to escape before the nest animation comes out. I think AM2 wanted to stay away from this.

As a big fan of mixed martial arts and judo, I'm of course as disappointed as anyone about the lack of the ground game, I'd like to see Vanessa lie on her back and lure the oppt. to attack into her guard. But I think I've finally come to see that VF just isn't that kind of game, that would slow it down too much.

Vanessa's front sleeper and holds are probably all we can hope for; although it would be cool to have her hold you from an arm lock in the same manner.

Spotlite

 

Hehehe forget about Venessa,

I was hopping for Wolf and Jeffry to have canned follow up to their pick up, but I don't think there is any in VF4

 

Wow... People are really mything up Ninjitsu here. It is actually a fighting art once you get out of the legends and mythos garbage. It was a style that developed in an isolated area of Japan. Since they had no real allies etc, they deigned on creating an infiltration art that focused on close in fighting along with joint locks etc. It was a fairly effective art as it was largely designed to be anti 'guy with sword', and their reputation for getting into places and being able to hold their own against guards/samurai made them attractive as assassins etc. They were never considered invincible though.

Just by way of historical precedent:

Back when Amakusa Shiro was "leading" the Christian revolt, they sent two assassins into the castle he had holed up in. Before they went in, the commander of the army tied two cords around the two so they could drag their bodies back when they got killed. (Much confidence eh?) The two were killed in short order, and retreived. They didn't really provide any info or do any assassanating though.

The newsgroup rec.arts.martial-arts.moderated (or something like that) has a comprehensive FAQ on pretty much every style in the popular consciousness, and it describes Ninjitsu as something closer to Ju Jitsu than the insant magic super happy 100% kill mumbo jumbo that's going around.

 

Marginal, thanks for the cool info.

Rope around their neck?? They expect "stealth" assassins to do their job dragging heavy rope around with them? LOL, no wonder they were killed.

Bewildered Ninja: "How did you know we were here??"

Samurai: "Err, there's no use hiding behind that vase, we can see the rope across the room."

Ninja: "Oh no! I've been discovered! I better run!"

Samura: "No you don't!" *Violently grabs rope lying on the ground, snapping ninja's neck*

OK OK, tell me that was funnier than my reworked VF storyline.

 

Yeah Ninja, but is Ninja costume for real ? Do they really wear yellow ? or is it black. Do they really have face cover or just hood ? Is Kage Costume authentic ?