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First impressions of VF5FS... what are your impressions now?

Discussion in 'News' started by akai, Sep 3, 2012.

By akai on Sep 3, 2012 at 8:14 PM
  1. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Before Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown was announced and in an effort to keep the community alive, Rodnutz took an initiative by starting up a newsletter. This later became known as One More Round (OMR). Unfortunately, due to the amount of time and effort needed to make these issues, the OMR project has ended. Several articles written by members of the VFDC community never got released. To rectify this, these articles are being posted here. Before Final Showdown was released, Chief Flash and Chefboy wrote their first impressions of the game at Final Round. Now that many months have passed, what are people's opinion of the game now?

    VF5FS - First Impressions @ Final Round
    By Chief_Flash on 15 March 2012

    Graphics
    The first thing you'll notice immediately is how good the graphics look. VF already looked great to begin with, but the addition of new animations really tops the cake. Sega has also made the colors brighter and more vibrant. The character models and stages look sharp and clean. Also, it's easier to see attack confirmations such as counter hit and normal hit. Right after you stare in awe of the graphics, you'll also immediately notice a difference in how characters move in the game. FS makes vanilla look stiff with its smooth and realistic animations. The character idle animations alone are awesome to look at and each character has more than one! :)

    Sound
    VF's sound has always been above average to me. I don't really mind VF's token sounds, but they are a bit outdated. Rest assured that FS sound effects have improved. You can really feel the impact of various hits now which compliments the animations very well. Getting hit on Major Counter (MC) sounds and looks painful!

    Gameplay
    As I stated earlier, character movement is probably the biggest difference in FS. The overall speed of the game feels faster in terms of dashing, crouch dashing, fuzzy guarding, and attacking. My biggest concern initially was the new throw system. As a Wolf player, I felt that the new throw system did not favor me. With throws having different execution speeds and the omission of zero frame throws really affects Wolf's throw game. For example, the game's average throw speed is 10 frames, and Wolf's best throw, Burning Hammer, executes in 16 frames. Opponents can react to the throw instantly by either attacking or escaping. Yes, you can escape Burning Hammer on reaction due to its unique start-up animation. However, after playing the game more and getting used to the new system, it didn't feel so bad in the end. In fact, I felt the complete opposite from my initial thoughts which leads to my next observation that FS caters to those with the strong ability to read opponents (yomi) more so than vanilla. No longer can a player input multiple throw escapes, but only one out of three directions ( [4],[6], and neutral)! The combo system in FS has also changed to favor players with strong offenses. Every character now can perform combos that net heavy damage against any character. And because of this, defense is even MORE valuable. The throw game has changed in the sense that players will now have to work harder in setting up throws. For Wolf's Burning Hammer, specifically, you really have to freeze the opponent to successfully connect it. The satisfaction of shedding 100 pts of your opponent’s life bar instantly has never felt greater. Furthermore, because the game caters toward the offensive, you'll find it extra satisfying as you strategically condition your opponent. SPAMMERS BEWARE! HAHA you cannot spam in FS. If you do, you pay the price! Overall, despite the numerous changes, I believe FS is the quintessential version of VF. :)


    VF5FS - First Impressions @ Final Round XV
    by Chefboy_OB on 15 March 2012

    System Wide Changes in VF5FS
    As most readers of this publication will already know, the changes implemented to movement, damage output, and throw system in Final Showdown have turned the slower-paced, safe-move encouraging tactics of vanilla on its head. Every action now has a significant amount of risk attached to its use corresponding with a substantial growth in the potential reward for its successful application. I will begin this analysis with the most fundamental aspect of any fighting game: movement.

    Upon my own personal judgment, I would say the game moves slower, but the increase in damage across the board has resulted in faster-paced matches. Though after some time in reflection I do not believe this is wholly correct. It would be better to say that the game is much stricter than vanilla was in regard to the types of movement available. Back dashes go farther and thus seem to be slower; however, they can still be cancelled. It seemed to me that cancels were only practical if they were between standard movements like dash, sidestep, and crouch dashes. For many this may not require much of an adjustment at all. The unlucky few that play the game by oscillating between dashes and sidesteps will need to adjust. Furthermore, movement needs to be done carefully at close range, as it is now very easy to eat repeated counter-hits for being too nimble.
    My final conclusion leaving the event was that any movement decided upon had to be a conscious decision weighed against the habits of one’s opponent. I say this not because back dashes are weak to middle kicks and the like, or because sidesteps open one up to being counter-hit by half-circulars. I say this because the buffer window between dashes and attacks seems to be tighter...or looser—I can't quite figure it out. If one were to decide to dash up to their opponent and jab with [P], they would need to make sure they clear the buffer window or delay that [P] ever so slightly to ensure that [6] [6] [P] did not in fact come out. It took a great deal of time to undue the muscle memory developed from maneuvering through vanilla-space. It is a really a rather small adjustment physically, but the overall danger associated with movement in general may lead to many more players opting to hold their ground directly in the opponents’ face. Those who witnessed the stream will see that I rarely, if ever, tried to simply sidestep or back dash away from Dango's Sarah and her Flamingo dance of death. All the changes to the movement system led me to infer that movement was no longer something to be taken lightly. It is no longer a 'free pass' to dance around an opponent and avoid their attacks, but it is something to be used deliberately to open up opportunities to snatch victory!

    Design Philosophy behind VF5FS
    Overall the gameplay in Final Showdown stinks of a new design philosophy from its very essence. It's easy to see why AM2 is so highly regarded. Anyone who has eyes to see will say that this game is different! People who had not touched VF since 2006 were able to see us play knew instantly, despite our low-level experimentation, the game itself was much fiercer and unforgiving. Whereas VF always seemed to me a close-range fighting game as opposed to Tekken or Soul Calibur, this game moves like a violent white-water rapid that inevitably forces both players down tight channels that seem to put them in range for a heavy make-out session with the light petting. Put together as a whole, the changes encourage many tactics that were formerly only reserved for the best players: whiff punishing, standing throw-escapes, and reverse-nitaku, abare-styled launchers.
    Taken at three different distance levels, the game tends to play out in such a fashion. At far range the match is more so about controlling the direction the fight is moving. If the fight is at long-range then one of the fighters is most certainly closer to the wall than the other, and I can tell you that wall is a very scary thing to be near! Mid-range is when the fancy movement we've all come to know, love, and perform becomes most useful. At mid-range one is generally out of range to be victim to a butt stumble from a well-timed mid-kick, but attacks at this range (even long-ranged attacks) become very dangerous given how easy it is to confirm the opponents whiffed attack and respond with a launcher of his or her own. At close-range the battle becomes a lighting fast test of wills where each option offers either death or delight. I feel that from here on, it will be necessary for each player to understand the unique strengths of their character and formulate their offense in order to best direct the opponent into their traps, webs, and set-ups. Everyone needs a frame trap, something with evasive properties, and something to encourage sidesteps. Anyone with a string naturally has a tool to force the opponent to stand still, but the rewards for predicting a side-step far outweigh the meager psychological benefits of a decent string (imho).

    The game was made to be exciting. If your blood is not pumping by the end of a match you're doing it wrong! The rectangular stages, though not nearly as fear-inducing as I once assumed, are still very tense stages to fight in. The tide of battle can do an about face in an instant though, so everyone should fight hard always and never be discouraged!

    Character Impressions for Vanessa
    I'd like to preface this section on my character, Vanessa Lewis, by briefly detailing what I thought made her special in Vanilla in order to make my impression clearer. If every character had a word or phrase to boil down their design philosophy to, I would characterize Vanessa as being an unmoral—or immoral if that suits you—character (Credit goes to Cozby for inspiring the term 'Unmoral' for my Vanessa play =P). Vanessa could be called a jack-of-all-trades in Vanilla, but I don't think that wholly describes her. Sure she has many tools that other characters would call their own, but they are generally weaker versions, and one must not forget that at all times she only had access to half of her move list at a time!

    What made Vanessa special was her precise combination of moves, and the fact that most of her best pokes, strings, and combos required her to switch stances. This ensures that an opponent could never adapt to fighting one of her stances as his/her mindset would immediately need to recalibrate to fight her other stance. Thus, I played Vanessa as though I never needed to stop attacking. If I was fully comfortable in my offense and defense then my tactics were based precisely on that phrase. If you were to see me employing movement or other defensive techniques it was really all a ploy to lure you into a false sense of security, only to use that to open you up or to better figure you out.

    Her sabakis did not give her damage, her damage required a counter-hit or for me to take a substantial risk, and her strings all suffered to low-punch. If you thought at any one time that you could not fight against her relentless assault then my job as a Vanessa player was done. Look now! Oh my, how things have changed...

    Vanessa's Design Philosophy in Final Showdown
    Attempting to play Vanessa even remotely like she played in Vanilla is a one-way ticket to Beatdown Town. She was assaulted on all ends from specific changes they made to her, and system-wide changes that are simply unfavorable to a stream of weak offensive attacks made in an attempt to confuse, frighten, or confound the opponent. I'm sure most Vanessa players have already poured over the differences on paper, but the method of play will need to start anew in your minds when this game hits.

    She doesn't switch stances nearly as much anymore. That is because there are really only two ways I could find to do so. Her shoulder slam moves using [6] [P][+][K][+][G], or simply [P][+][K][+][G]. This means that the constant switching from one stance to another using frame traps from her spinning elbow to keep the offensive flow are completely gone and you'd best forget them here. Now it will only hurt you to keep them in your mind. That is a rather large part of what made her good before, but all is not without hope as they left many things intact in both stances; however, Vanessa players will have to find different ways to set up her remaining tools.

    The system-wide adjustment to the risk/reward ratio for sidesteps really works in Vanessa's favor now more than ever. In offensive stance, arguably her best single move was [6_][K], or the “Deathscythe.” Using frame-traps to set it up, this was one of her most dangerous moves that was completely safe, special-high, half-circular, and lead to 70-point combos on the full cast in any stance with amazing options for oki. It still retains all those spectacular properties, but the fact that it is half-circular makes it truly deadly, befitting its title. Any opponent must now be wary of stepping to Vanessa's back when she is in offensive stance, or they risk eating the move because counter-hits are automatic for half-circular moves. This means you don't really have to set-up the move at all anymore—though it would be wise!

    Intruder stance(offensive) has been given a boost be adding to the number of times one can enter into it, but the options from it have been shortened to a mid-punch that crumples, the rolling kick that staggers, and her takedown catch-throw. For example she can now choose to enter intruder stance from [K][P] by pressing forward. This is actually used in some of her combos because [K] from intruder stance bounds now. What is significant about that specific string is that it now replaces her old [4][6][P][P]([4][P]) or ([P]) string. Like her old version it begins with a half-circular and given the changes to movement that means that a correct guess guarantees the entire string! The multiple ending choices make this a particularly dangerous built-in mix-up game.

    I would say that she is overall a much more dangerous opponent because the philosophy behind her is no longer to use all her moves to mentally frustrate an opponent, but to surgically apply her multitude of attacks for their diverse and dangerous properties in the appropriate situation. She doesn't need to work hard for counter-hits anymore. They're giving them away with bean pies and brochures on the street corner now!

    I'll wrap this up here because I've probably written too much anyway, but I'd be more than happy to discuss further where I feel the direction of Vanessa play and VF in general is headed with the next iteration. I can't express just how excited I am for this game. It's going to be a blast and you're all going to see, very soon, why when we all left Atlanta we left hungry for more!
     
    Chanchai likes this.

Comments

Discussion in 'News' started by akai, Sep 3, 2012.

    1. Chief_Flash
      Chief_Flash
      LOL!!! did i really say you can't spam in FS? :D
      Genesis, BlackGeneral and Ribx like this.
    2. Ribx
      Ribx
      I had a flashback to Cozby's 3P x3-4 in your MM vs him, when I read that.
    3. Tha_FeauchA
      Tha_FeauchA
      My only beef with the game so far is the lazy throw escape. Don't like it.
    4. SUGATA
      SUGATA
      VF5FS graphic is really much worse than in vanilla VF5:

      1) VF5: shadow on shadow = darker shadow parts. VF5FS - no.
      [​IMG]

      2) VF5: several gradations of skin shine dynamically changing during the round (aka sweets). VF5FS - no (always max skin shine).

      3) VF5: Lei's arena with fog which has realistic physics of moving. VF5FS - no any analog.
      [​IMG]

      4) VF5: Arena with breakable tiles and its pieces scattered believable and remained lying on the floor the entire game. VF5FS: no.

      5) VF5: arena with puddles, which was a reflection of the characters, and it eroded realistic. Plus, when striking the surface of the puddles trembling was rippling, and accordingly distorted reflection in the water, the water gradually calmed down.
      [​IMG]

      VF5FS: no.

      6) VF5: much better (more detail) textures and characters/items has more polygons.
      VF5FS: poor.

      7) VF5: better lightning and HDR effect (sun blinding).
      VF5FS: no/poor.

      8) VF5: Eileen's arena with the best water physics i've ever seen.
      VF5FS: no water arenas, sands not very good (snow in VF5 was better).
      [​IMG]
      SpookyDoom and Nono like this.
    5. Myke
      Myke
      The OMR articles have been updated in layout to improve readability.

      BTW, so glad these articles were finally released!
      Genesis and akai like this.
    6. Genesis
      Genesis
      I know it's a little off the general subject of the balance tweaks and all that, but I often feel like domestic multiplayer got somewhat nerfed in Final Showdown. Now, this only applies to custom character costumes and multiple play files on one system, but even so, it's bothersome that using a custom from another profile, something that was made easy in Vanilla, became so restrictive and unnecessarily complicated in Final Showdown.

      Otherwise, it takes the cake as the most fast-paced and exciting VF yet.
    7. Rodnutz
      Rodnutz
      Hey Everyone,

      I just wanted to say that it truly saddens me to see OMR go. For many long months I ponder on ways of saving it, but the fire building beneath it had burned out and there just was no way I could continue to do it on my own. I take full responsibility for the death of OMR, because even I lost faith in it and my ability to keep it afloat.

      However, OMR was a great thing that came at a great time when the community was seriously struggling. To everyone who contributed to OMR I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. I still can't believe how my silly newsletter idea turn into a full fledged e-magazine.

      Since there are many newcomers to the VF community who make not have seen any of the OMR issues I have placed download links below for you. If you are new and would like to see just how awesome this community can be then please check them out.

      Issue #1 - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25965030/OMR_Issue 1.pdf

      Issue #2 - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25965030/OMR_Issue 2.pdf

      Issue #3 - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25965030/OMR_Issue 3.pdf

      Although OMR has officially retired from the scene maybe something else will take it's place in the near future. Or maybe it's possible OMR may come out of retirement? I know I have done it one or twice it before. :p

      Again thank you to all those who contributed material or took the time out to read the e-magazine! To the small team that sacrifice much of their time putting everything together thank you... thank you.... THANK YOU!

      -Rod
      Chanchai, Tha_FeauchA and BLACKSTAR like this.
    8. Tha_FeauchA
      Tha_FeauchA
      Just wanted to add that I do like this game a lot, it's just the lazy throw escapes I'm not too fond of. That, and the beefed up hit tracking, hahah.
    9. BLACKSTAR
      BLACKSTAR
      Well, Rodnutz, I have more free time now than in the spring, so if you ever need more graphic art, hit me up, since I still owe you a cover
      Rodnutz likes this.
    10. Substandard
      Substandard
      In all honesty, I'm just really glad to be able to play a new version of VF.
      Genesis and Tha_FeauchA like this.
    11. Myke
      Myke
      Absolutely, thanks to all contributors! Many people, including myself, thoroughly enjoyed your work!

      And a special mention to Rod: just wanted to give you a heart felt thanks for your effort on OMR! It's just another example of your desire to better the VF scene, and you'll always be a mainstay of the community!
      Rodnutz and Chanchai like this.
    12. jongoo
      jongoo
      good read, ty

      Winning was all I cared about until a year ago (I'm 31). Now that I don't care nearly as much, I'm more stressfree and play better somewhat ironically!

      I'm 0-4 in tourney play (just started recently at WNF) but whatever, I had a lot of fun and met cool people and that's what it should be about (I am determined to get a win though haha).

      There was a time in casuals where I lost my cool and slammed my joystick (thank goodness it was mine and that it didn't mess up the PS3 it hit) but I think getting hit my the most annoying move in the game one too many times can try anyone's patience...Jacky's flip kick (I main Jacky as well but I don't use that move much lol). Looking back, and especially after seeing others deal with it well (block/dodge, punish HARD to deter), I should have just took a deep breath and realized I simply need to work on my game.

      EDIT: D'oh I meant to put this in the "check your ego" thread.
    13. blossy1000
      blossy1000
      Thank you for asking me to do the interview back then, it was obviously an honor as a new player to be interviewed by you. I remember thinking to myself "well I can't quit now" lol! The whole thing was a great idea, and the other two issues were really great to read.
      Rodnutz likes this.
    14. Dennis0201
      Dennis0201
      New system is fresh but not mature. Let's see if AM2 would stick with it or go back to original next time :)
    15. G_A
      G_A
      Nice reading.

      Interesting to see that Chief Flash doesn't see the new throw escape system such a bad thing, and why.

      1) In both game there is only ONE source of lighting for all the elements. And when two shadows from the SAME source of lighting crosses, you definitely don't get a darker shadow part. Feel free to test it by yourself.
      So in fact VF5FS would do this better.
      That said I tried to superposing two shadows on Vanilla by standing the fighters side by side... and I didn't get a darker shadow. And by looking at your picture carefully, the darker parts of the shadows of Lion are not always a part where two shadows crosses. Strange.

      2) I just (rapidly I admit) tested it and I didn't get that impression. But I find that the skin tones of Vanilla are less natural after playing FS.

      3,4)
      - I never saw true, natural fog with such physics of moving. On other hand, with dense smoke, yes.
      - Breaking tiles just by falling is ridiculous. You don't even need to slam the opponent to do it in the game (just falling after a launcher is needed). And even in reality you would not break tiles by slamming someone on ground. Except if it's made of clay, but a ground made of clay would be nonsense.

      In conclusion even if they are technical features, even if they would be correctly calculated, they were definitely unlikely. Since the engine is basically the same but improved and should still be able to do it, AM2 probably came to the same conclusions.

      5) No in VF5FS ? Lau's stage has it...

      6) For the textures I tend to agree. That said it's rumored that it's because to the size limit imposed by Microsoft for XBLA (and it would have impacted the PS3 version). I can't compare to the arcade version, but well, it would change nothing.
      For the polygons I disagree. I don't even see the point for AM2 to rework the models to get less polygons, it's the same engine. For the items now you have some long cloth with great physics. I don't remember seeing such well made thing on Vanilla.

      7) What ? No or poor in VF5FS ? What about Vanessa, Akira or Jeffry stage ? Definitely obvious during characters presentations when they are in front of the sun, still present during the fights. And done correctly, not too much, just as needed. And you have all the other lighting effects. I am surprised how you came with such observation.

      8)
      - For the water you should look to more PC games, like Crysis 2 or Hydrophobia Prophecy :D
      That said, I find the water physic lacking of viscosity (specially for a dirty water) and the fact that the characters were always clean... made it looks like things half done.
      - For the sand/snow I highly disagree. First in Vanilla you would get a tons some sharp edged pile of snow (definitely unrealistic). And the snow was just disappearing (simulating the compression) where the characters would step it, there is absolutely no displacement.
      VF5FS on other hand is simulating the displacement of sand, which is definitely harder to do.
      And while in Vanilla the snow hasn't shadows, in VF5FS the sand does have shadow, made in real time according to the displacements. The other shadows are according to the displacements too, which is more complex since the sand makes a more complex surface.
    16. Chief_Flash
      Chief_Flash
      actually i've changed my mind since writing this. the new throw system is for noobs and i fucking hate it. LOL
      Rodnutz likes this.
    17. AnimalStaccato
      AnimalStaccato
      My impression is that there is no offline scene in Wales. If you're in Wales and want to play offline. GET. IN. TOUCH.

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