For fun, how would you tier thus far?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ice-9, Jan 1, 2002.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey guys,

    To spark some discussion, I'm going to pose the question...how would you rank/tier the characters in VF4 so far, based on what you know, your observations, and your theories? Sure, it's early, and anything we say now is probably going to be way off, but what the hell, let's give it a try, JUST FOR FUN.

    I'll post mine later, but let's hear yours!

    P.S. When I ask this question, some people ask back: "At what level?" My standard response has always been, "Average high level." It's no secret at the highest levels, i.e., the Tetsujin level, all characters can win, any time, against any one. However, at "our" level, certain characters may seem more competitive relative to others.
     
  2. UnCauzi

    UnCauzi Well-Known Member

    I may seem vague, and it is early but this is how I feel right now, not based on frames and advanced stuff I'm just a scrub. This is from what I think seems effective.

    1. Akira- shrm, sde, good combos, decent throws. Can get predictable but with 3 good reversals what else can you ask for besides easier manual control. I think there's a whole lot of frame, RTE, DTE, things that I've heard people rant about to, but from my experience I haven't seen it happen, though I can see it being in his favor if I understand it all correctly.

    2. Lau- He just seems to easy to use imo, very straight forward, and fast. Low risk, high reward if not played to offensive or defensive. Also has a really high damage throw, d/f,d/f+p+g, or b,d+p+g which leads to a happy pppk BD juggle. Many ways to start the BD juggle to. BD= Brain Dead/PPPK.

    3. Jacky: Priority whore, lots of mixups, decent juggles, sabaki. I think he has more variety than Lau but Lau does big damage without relying on mixups. Though I do find that a cancelling jacky is a major pain in the arse.

    4.Shun/Lei: Shun has great maneuverability and high damaging juggles plus drunken bonuses which lead to guaranteed hits. Lei has good juggles and what he lacks in maneuverability he makes up in sabaki/priority.

    5.Lion/Vanessa: Hard for me to place one over the other. Both have pretty good priority, Lion has the speed/juggles cuppled with lots of guaranteed knockdowns, Vanessa is a monster on counter hit complete with sick sick delays and counters/sabaki.

    6.Wolf/Jeffry- Low throws, Knees, etc etc... I'm getting lazy.

    7.Kage: Ring out stuff and just had more difficulty against him than.....

    8.Aoi- Just doesn't do enuff damage. Has plenty going for her otherwise though.

    9.Pai/Sarah- I never see anyone play these 2. Though I must say I got my ass kicked in NY by a decent sarah. So admittedly I'm very ignorant as far as she's concerned.

    Actually I think I'd move Lion up to Shun and Lei down to Vanessa.
     
  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Hmm, this is just a quick off the top of my head response (written in a long format), and this thread is more like a novelty than any real theory, so I figure it'll be fun to participate and I'm sure people will heavily disagree with me. Much like Ice, I don't really believe in tiers if we were talking high level play here. It's always so easy to bitch and in most tier lists I usually see people picking their character as one of the worst (I'm no exception if you talk about Lion--I really think he is underpowered when his traps and games become well accustomed to).

    1) Vanessa - I haven't seen her used to full potential but she's got a lot of the right tools and plenty of them. Her low throw game is becoming less of a threat to me, but pretty much all of the low throw setups can be changed into decent combo setups. She's also fun to use against Akira players/versus/images/icons/wink.gif To list things.... Damage potential, many ground attack guarantees (or so it seems), some pounce opportunities, interrupt and tick capabilities are strong, flowcharting, good zoning play, good throw game, 50/50 low throw game makes big damage and extra ground kick when successful, pressure game is on par, dodge options can be very wicked, delayable attacks. So far, Vanessa is a monster in my eyes.

    2) Shun - Damage, solid zone setups, close and mid range is pretty darn good, can be very machi if he wants to be. So much to be said about Shun. Combos, low attacks from hell, anti low attack ability (mule kick--equivalent to certain knee attacks, but the rewards are wonderful), anti linear (db or ub+PKG, P is evil in certain situations), many options from all stances now, once he has sufficient drunken points his new throw rewards him with 6dp(!) to maintain drunkeness, priority attacks, very good at abusing whiffed attacks. Shun is MEAN!

    3) Aoi - Aoi does indeed have damage capabilities. It's not the highest, but I would say it's pretty good. Add to that her yin yang stance and options and she can be a bit frustrating to deal with. A good throw game helps a lot. A decent number of priority attacks that work well to interrupt. Some basic combos in the mix that do good damage. Excellent continuous flowcharting (for those that like to keep the pressure on). Hell, a real machi Aoi can be a real bitch to handle too. Her range play is just sweet as well (abusing various ranges and attack/safety zones). Trust me, Aoi is a GOOD character. At the level I've been fighting at with others, Aoi is very strong for these reasons as well as how VF3 style Aoi is pretty easy to implement (and is more powerful in general minus some ground throw opportunities) and a strictly VF4 style Aoi has also been seen to work quite well too.

    4) Akira - Heavy damage potential, the double palm of death. The only drawbacks I see to Akira is how obvious some throw counter situations are against him, being a very linear character (double palm helps to ease this greatly), and practically no low game. Not to mention one of the strongest ring out and wall games and he's scary in all arenas. But it's all made up for in bulk by power, clean technique, and tons of aggressive options that can destroy attackers and defenders alike.

    5) Jeffry - I don't know enough about Jeffry... But recently playing a decent Jeffry had me scared. Maybe it was my lack of experience... but the traditional formula of many low throws, many throw options, combos, priority attacks, KD setups, power, speed.... it all scares me and I am now longing for Portland to have a resident Jeffry player because Jeffry is so scary in VF4 (though I don't know if he's any meaner than VF3 Jeffry).

    6) Jacky - On the intermediate level, Jacky is powerful. I never feel threatened by Jacky though, but he can be a tough cookie with a lot of options. Knee, beat knuckle, shuffle, decent flowchart options, and combos. Jacky's a character that can keep the pressure on while maintaining a degree of safety.

    7) Kage - Kage's a new character this time around, but so far he's got a lot of stuff. His new attacks are imo more awkward to fight against than Lei Fei. Many combo options from mid range that deal good damage. Practically a yomi monster since it seems to require enough yomi to be daring enough to risk a lot, but the rewards are wonderful. I honestly believe Kage has a good throw game if you're not just going for the highest damage (and you're willing to dish average or above average damage), his catch throw actually has its uses. Heck, his okizeme game has so much potential from my viewpoint as well.

    8) Sarah - priority whore with unique ways of delaying tactics to abuse a rhythm game. Strong poking ability, strong flowchart play, excellent rushing capability. Also throw the catch throw in the mix and some of its special properties and that alone can be pretty scary. Sarah has a lot of combo potential as well.

    9) Lei Fei - I haven't been beaten by a masher Lei Fei by far, so I'll just put that on the record (I block a lot). Lei Fei's throw game is shallow, but the rewards are pretty good. So far, Lei Fei seems to have many good setups from long range and close range, granted that at close range he is given the initiative to implement those. Tiger stance is a good way of maintaining a close range threat, but it's not invincible and it can be prevented. Lei Fei has the ability to continuously move in certain directions through stance switching which helps him establish ranges. The crane stance works well to defeat many punch attacks. I've faced quite a few good Lei Fei players lately (particularly Rayblade in Portland and Herman from Vancouver) and it's a joy to fight them as well as quite difficult as placing attacks is difficult against a good Lei Fei who is counting on you to do a foolish attack when he really has the moves to eat it up and spit you out.

    10) Wolf - I just didn't know where to put Wolf because I know he's very powerful. In fact, all the lower tier characters I write are all more powerful than this list presents, but at the same time, the marginal difference in ranking is really tiny on my scale. Part of why I don't like tiers, but grouped tiers would be even weirder for me to try to write out. Wolf has similar qualities as Jeffry, but I can't say enough about him.

    11) Lion - Despite the success I have with Lion and the constant sighs of anguish when I nail certain attacks (b,df+P *cough*) and all the pounces I take a gamble on (and usually hit), I do think that once someone understands Lion enough, or the player behind the strings, they'll see that Lion isn't all that powerful. But he's still annoying. Lion is probably one of the only characters I can think of that doesn't have an abusive low punch eater. He has damage potential, but his "big damage" attacks are average damage at best. In up close combat, his dodge options aren't the best at all, but it's somewhat made up by well timed b+P+K+G which can get him behind the opponent for a good advantage, depending on what the opponent attacked with. Lion has a throw game so that keeps him well alive. Alright, so enough of the bitching about what Lion doesn't have, here's what he does have. Good poking game from mid and mid-close range, damage potential from mid and long range, good rushing ability once he can grab the advantage from mid range, low attack options, anti-dodge options, ring out potential (much harder to implement than in VF3, but it's there), some guaranteed pounces, some pounce gambles that are easy to time to make the pounces virtually guaranteed, KD options which help the damage and slow the rhythm of the match down, decent flowcharting ability. As Ice mentioned in the Lion dojo, I agree that Lion has many 50/50 type guessing games. Imo, that's not necessarily a good thing, but its something.

    12) Lau - I think he's powerful... but I also feel his game is sort of shallow at the moment. I'm looking forward to seeing him developed further as I'm sure that he's pretty high up there, but I haven't seen much to show it. However, traditional elbow rushes work well to a degree, a low attack that balances things out, some delay properties with his new moves, high damage potential, and with experience he has some good ring out potential too. However, he seems so risk vs. reward in VF4 as he's easily throw counterable if his rush isn't carefully implemented, his heelkick isn't what it used to be, and I haven't seen much tech roll punishment on his part compared to other characters.

    13) Pai - She's got a lot of fun stuff, a lot of strong options. And I really don't know if she's the weakest character in the game, but at this point, it's the only place I can put her in my mind. She's got pokes, combos, okizeme, throws, and baits.
     
  4. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    yeah, but how would you tier the characters?
    Unless you're placing aoi and shun near the top and lau near last?
     
  5. UnCauzi

    UnCauzi Well-Known Member

    argh true did more of a ranking than a tier...k here we go.

    1st tier
    Akira
    Lau
    Jacky


    2nd tier
    Shun
    Lei Fei
    Lion
    Vanessa
    Jeffry
    Wolf

    3rd
    Kage
    Aoi
    Sarah
    Pai

    In order.
     
  6. marcel

    marcel Well-Known Member

    1 Vanessa, Sarah, Pai, LAu, Akira
    2 Akira, wolf, Jeffery, Lion, Shun
    3 (VF3 Dural, Taka) Lei Fei, Kage, and the rest
     
  7. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    I agree almost spot-on, but I think Sarah belongs in the second tier. Fast punch, good floats, reasonable throw mix-ups. She's light and vulnerable to mid reversals, and most of her low attacks suck, but I think she makes up for it with the stuff listed before.

    >1st tier Akira Lau Jacky

    Blahh...same old shit, just another VF sequel. Will it ever change?
     
  8. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    >1st tier Akira Lau Jacky

    Blahh...same old shit, just another VF sequel. Will it ever change?


    Err, well, it did. Kage dropped a couple of tiers :)
    But otherwise the usual golden boy rules apply.
     
  9. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    1st-Akira, Wolf, Lau, Jacky.
    2nd-Shun, Vanessa/Jeffry, Aoi, Sarah.
    3rd-Lei, Kage, Pai, Lion.
     
  10. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Group the rankings anyway you like/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    I can't say I put much thought into it, but for the moment and still as I write this, it's somewhere close to how I feel about the character balance at whatever level I'm playing at now.

    Doesn't mean much....

    But yes, top is stronger, bottom is "not so strong." And yes, so Aoi and Shun are up pretty high (and I figure many will disagree) while Lau is near last (again, many would disagree but I just haven't found all that much in Lau's arsenal at the moment and the certain property changes seem to make him much weaker).

    If I had an idea of tiers, it would be sorted by Top Tier = 1-5; Middle Tier = 6-10; Bottom Tier = 11-13. Or something much like that.

    -Chanchai
     
  11. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Huh.

    I'm surprised with the lau ranking, the others may be arguable but lau's clearly a tough bastard from what I see. b,b+P,d+PPPsweep still doesn't need a counter to give you a simple canned 40% combo (even vs. heavies), and neither the b,b+P or the d+P is counterable from what I hear. Upknife-P is still an uncounterable float attempt that gives you easy combos if it counters and the decent damage upknife-PPP on no counter. Then lau's got two great throws, the d/f, d/f and ST. And the old elbow palm. f,d+K is a strong low attack. Heelkick is a pretty safe long range mid. Lau doesn't seem to lack anything, I'd have to put him above Kage (and aoi, but you're putting aoi way up there, so nm that)..

    Also the new systems help him plenty - elbow palm or regular b,f+P leads to the kickup animation, and lau couldn't do much with that before. Now he gets PPPsweep. Ditto the MC f,d+K kuzure down, and ditto the ST, b,f+P, PPPsweep (which makes the ST much stronger than before).
     
  12. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Top:
    Akira
    Lau
    Wolf
    Jacky
    Vanessa

    Middle:
    Shun
    Sarah
    Aoi
    Jeffrey
    Lei Fei

    Bottom:
    Pai
    Lion
    Kage
     
  13. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    why did you put both of Troy's characters at the bottom? I think Pai and Lion are both worthy of mid level status wut up with that?
     
  14. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: VF4 character tier, just for fun/

    1st: Jeffry, Akira, Wolf
    2nd: Jacky, Shun, Vannesa
    3rd: Lau, Aoi, Sarah, Kage
    4th: Lei, Pai, Lion
    <><><>just for fun<><><><>
    ...according to my linited arcade VF4 exposure.
     
  15. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Top tier- Akira, Jacky, Wolf, Jeffrey, Lau
    Middle tier- Vanessa, Lion, Aoi, Shun, Lei Fei, Sarah
    Bottom tier- Kage, Pai
     
  16. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    see yours makes sense those people putting Wolf and Jefferey in the second tier are fucking nuts.
     
  17. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Re: VF4 character tier, just for fun/

    I'm curious....
    Why did you rank Lion so low?
    A) He's got nice mid pokes
    B) He has a nice sabaki attack
    C) Three attacks which if they hit normally give a Kuzure Down stagger guaranteeing a followup
    D) A nice selection of throws, especially D_f+P+G, df+P+G, and pull-in throw, which can be followed by a side throw
    E) A good ground game
    F) Nice combos

    Sure, he's not the strongest, but he's at least worthy of 3rd tier status.
     
  18. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    heh, to quote someone familiar... you're fucking nuts (if you think pai belongs anywhere but last or second to last) =)

    She was at her meanest in VF2 and never got any better, only worse. It's a shame. Even in the transition from VF3TB to VF4 she got screwed a bit.
    The nice thing about VF is that everyone has something that's really effective and damaging, so nobody seems like they deserve to be called third tier.. but if anyone gets that honor it's pai. Which is sad because she's my primary.
     
  19. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    VF4 LION is 4th rank

    I'm curious....
    Why did you rank Lion so low?


    1)Lion is among the lightest and has slow punches.
    2)No mid TT attack.
    3)Lack of Damage on Throws
    4)Weight
    5)Lack of variety for float starters.
    6)No Low Throw.
    7)d/f+P+G(?!?) = zero damage side exchange
    8)Lack of reversals.
    9)Nice sabaki attacks?
     
  20. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Re: VF4 LION is 4th rank

    No need to shout. I wasn't flaming u. I was asking a qweschunn an listing reezuns fer my curryosittee..

    I guess the question could apply to any others who posted that Lion be in the bottom tier.
     

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