For fun, how would you tier thus far?

Re: VF4 Lion questions

sorry ...didn't mean to shout ghostdog. /versus/images/icons/blush.gif

 

Re: VF4 LION is 4th rank

> slow punches.

If it's like VF3 he's in the same class as Akira/Jacky/Lau/etc in punch speed. Average.

> No mid TT attack.

errr...most characters don't, and most that do have it have crappy mid TT attacks. This isn't much of a reason.

> Lack of variety for float starters.

Variety doesn't mean much. Plus he has a whole bunch of moves that KD w/o MC.

> No Low Throw.

!@!!? neither do the majority of the other characters. That's _not_ a reason.

> d/f+P+G(?!?) = zero damage side exchange

This isn't a reason, either. Almost all of the characters have setup throws that do little or no damage.

> Lack of reversals.

Ehh, big deal. Sabaki's fill in the gap a bit.

 

Re: VF4 LION is 4th rank

> slow punches.

If it's like VF3 he's in the same class as Akira/Jacky/Lau/etc in punch speed. Average.
No mid TT attack.

errr...most characters don't, and most that do have it have crappy mid TT attacks. This isn't much of a reason.

> Lack of variety for float starters.

Variety doesn't mean much. Variety is the spice of VF. Lion lacks this spice.
Plus he has a whole bunch of moves that KD w/o MC.
No argument that KD being available w/o Mc is a plus for Lion.
> No Low Throw.

!@!!? neither do the majority of the other characters. That's _not_ a reason.
yes, that's true...but...just one more reason for this light to mid-weight character to be ranked low.
> d/f+P+G(?!?) = zero damage side exchange

This isn't a reason, either. Almost all of the characters have setup throws that do little or no damage. Sure it is.... ghostdog mentioned two throws that he felt were "strong" for Lion. My argument is that LX ( d/f_P+G) has medium damage at best.
> Lack of reversals.

Ehh, big deal. Sabaki's fill in the gap a bit. Maybe not a big deal, but ,just one more mark against Lion being ranked higher, no?
Hmm, ghostdog also mentions this as well. Any specifics for Lion Sabaki that you feel fill in the gap??

 

Re: VF4 LION is 4th rank

1)Lion is among the lightest and has slow punches.
4)Weight

He's a middleweight. Aoi, Vanessa, and Sarah are lightweights. Weight apparently doesn't make a difference.

2)No mid TT attack.

Bungle covered this. Next...

3)Lack of Damage on Throws

HCB+P+G does 60 pts of damage. Both f, f+P+G and b+P+G do 50 pts of damage. D_f+P+G-> f, f+K, K or b, f+K+G, d+K are damaging flowcharts, and can be set up from a simple low punch or crouch dash. df+P+G gives a guaranteed df+P swipe, and even if the following punch is blocked, the opponent is within throwing range.

8)Lack of reversals.

Jacky doesn't have reversals. Neither does Lau. Pai has reversals, and she's at the bottom of your (and everyone else's) list.

9)Nice sabaki attacks?

Lion's sabaki snuffs out mid kicks and low punches, as far as I know. That's not too shabby.

He has some nice ranged attacks, such as b, df+P, which gives a KD on a normal hit. That's like an extra 35 pts of damage. Like I posted before, he has a nice variety of throws, so if your attack is blocked, you have to guess between df+P+G, f+P+G, and b+P+G to escape the throw. Not good odds.

 

Re: VF4 Lion

He's a middleweight. Aoi, Vanessa, and Sarah are lightweights. Weight apparently doesn't make a difference.

Weight and Special Stance considerations:
ÂÂE Ulta-lights: Aoi, Pai, Sarah, Vanessa (<font color=red> all have special stances</font color=red>)
ÂÂE Light to middleweight-: Shun, Lei, Lion, Kage ( <font color=red>all have special stances except Lion</font color=red>)
ÂÂE * middleweight+: Jacky, Lau, Akira
ÂÂE * heavyweight: Wolf, Jeffry
Weight matters. 69% of VF4 characters have special stances
and 70% ( statistically significant?) are heavier.

 

Re: VF4 Lion

Weight and Special Stance considerations:
ÂÂE Ulta-lights: Aoi, Pai, Sarah, Vanessa ( all have special stances)
ÂÂE Light to middleweight-: Shun, Lei, Lion, Kage ( all have special stances except Lion)
ÂÂE * middleweight+: Jacky, Lau, Akira
ÂÂE * heavyweight: Wolf, Jeffry
Weight matters. 69% of VF4 characters have special stances
and 70% ( statistically significant?) are heavier.

But...what does stance have to do with it? We were just dealing with character weight. You listed Lion's weight as a reason why he shouldn't be in a higher tier. I stated that weight doesn't make a difference when you have lightweights in higher tiers than Lion. You didn't even mention stances. I don't get the connection.

 

why is Vanessa strong???

There is NO DECENT followup in substitute for the low throw after a crumble. Even the Japanese videos I watch uses err... high pounce??? That is pathetic when people starts to break low throws.

Why is it fun to play vs an Akira?? I play MT stance and it is really tough playing Akira. A missed throw will cost me a shrm 50% combo. dunno but it seems that Akira need only two good hits to kill me.

maybe I was getting predictable and Vanessa needs a good circular attack to hit dodgers. Is MT b,f+k circular attack?

I think Akira is one of the BEST definately. strong and simple floats, okay throws, strong reversals, pretty heavy. What else can you want?

 

see yours makes sense those people putting Wolf and Jefferey in the second tier are fucking nuts.

Most people drop Wolf and Jeff off the top tier because of their slow high punch... it limits their minor counter options to some extent.

 

I wouldn't.

Ok, I thought i'd put my two cents in here. To be perfectly honest, I don't think VF4 conforms very well to tiering the characters. I truly believe the game to be ridiculously balanced - so much in fact that I'd put every character in the same tier.
I've said this before on #vfhome - every character, imo, is very powerful. They all have some sort of cheesy good damage setup. And in the right hands (very important) they can all be very dominant and "top tier".

The problem with these lists is that they consider the character is being played by an new to below average player. Really, any one with interest and time invested into the game will use their brain and many criteria for ranking a character lower fall away. VF4 is such a momentum driven game, moreso than its predecessors. The oki is the game is so very strong and all characters can do it equally well. I have yet to see one character be noticeably weaker than another. The only character that I would have originally thought to be weak is Aoi. But an Aoi player won a damn japanese tournament - that's got to say something. On paper she's stupid powerful - she just needs to be played by a competent Aoi player.

I truly believe that the tiering of characters does not work very well and you'll have little compromise amongst the people to come out with a semi-definitive listing. All the characters are a powerful bastards.

cheers,

 

Re: VF4 Lion

"gulp". no further comment on tier fun today.
You did an excellent move analysis of recent Aoi vs. Wolf film. Can you give xaxak vs. parapa.DX a look and comment on use of combos, please?
Awesome Vf4 community in Korea. The Vf Clubs are as strong as ever. MVP is biolab crew that produced the amazing Akira Dance a few years ago. I was reviewing this tape yesterday. Funny to hear the popcorn machine in background. <a target="_blank" href=http://www.thenomercy.wo.to/>http://www.thenomercy.wo.to/</a> has an amazing Lion vs Lion VF4 battle.
At end of round one there is a little Lion victory shuffle. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif twice in round four follow-up d/f+P is foiled in separate situations.

 

OK, here are my thoughts and tier

Well, I've been holding off to read people's responses and was wondering where I was going to post mine, but I think Llanfair's post is a good starting point. This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.


RE: Concept of tiering

I like asking people who they think is strong; in fact, I do it all the time. But let me go on record to state that I don't really believe in the institutional value of tiering in VF3 and VF4 in that, too often, people use tiers/rankings as a psychological crutch. "Oh, my character sucks, that's why I keep losing," or "He's using the best character, that's why I keep losing." Some people want to believe they are playing with a built in handicap, so that when they pull off the victory it is through their own skill and not the character they are using. Similarly, those people want to put the other guy playing the #1 character on a guilt trip, implying that he's actually not all that good and just playing a damn strong character. Obviously, the wrong attitude. If you lose, blame yourself, don't blame the character, and work on your game.

This psychological crutch is the danger of making and institutionalizing a list...and so while I love to talk about tiering, I don't really believe in it. For VF3 and VF4 only. (You bet your ass there's tiering in other fighting games! ahemcoughtekkensputtergack).

So why bother at all? Well, if you think about it, when a person thinks the characters through and tries to rank them, they are almost asking themselves: "What if I dedicated my entire VF4 life to developing this character? Would this character that I play be more effective than this other character, had I dedicated my VF4 life to that character?" Etc. So tiers/rankings are indicative of the assumptions and observations that a person makes, and that's why I'm always interested to hear what people think. Hell, I have a tier.

Finally, I wholly disagree with Llanfair's notion that tiering in VF4 only exists among "new and below average" players, and honestly, I think it's a good time to make an assessment of our own skills. I mean, what the heck is below average? Are the regulars here above average? Yet, in a thread like this, you see quite a few responses and attempts at making a tier, even if it was only "for fun."

I think tiering exists at our level (I use the definition of "our level" quite loosely, of course), because frankly speaking, I don't really think we're anywhere near the level where skill and yomi are the only things separating players. Right now, for most of us, what character you use makes a difference. Of course, I'm not saying that Jackys beat Pais up on a daily basis, I'm saying at our level, you'll see Jackys win more than Pais on average, given a comparable competency. Etc. etc., I'm sure most of you are familiar with the usual truisms that inevitably come up in every tiering discussion.

That's why in my inital post, I put "average high level"...because that's sorta what I see the top players here in the U.S. as being. We know many of the tricks, the combos, flowcharts, etc., but we won't be beating some of those 10th Dan folks on a regular basis any time soon.

I've been playing this game a lot, and I've put in some time into every character (let's say I'm confident I can write a Dojo for everyone), yet, and I bet Chris will agree with me on this, a character like Jacky has the advantage (however slight) over a character like Pai. For us, and I don't really consider us to be new or below average. And really, when you talk about "average," you have to ask relative to what. Below average here in the English-speaking world? Below average relative to the players that have attended the past few VF3 gatherings in the U.S.? Or below average in the world, including Japan?

Even in VF3, it was only in the last year that I felt my Kage finally caught up to Skeleton's Kage...and that was Skeleton Kage based on the few movies that I had of him years ago. Seriously, it took me that long to appreciate the genius in his Kage and incorporate it into my game. I'm betting that when I get to Japan, there will be aspects of gameplay that I don't even know how to appreciate, because I haven't even begun to think about them or even be aware of them yet. If this is starting to sound sycophantic, yeah, it is.


RE: My tier

This is how I would place it:

1. Akira, Jacky, Lau, Shun
2. Wolf, Jeffry, Kage, Aoi
3. Lei Fei, Lion, Sarah, Vanessa
4. Pai

If you put a gun to my head and ask me to rank them, they would be in order from left to right and downwards. I'm probably going to change my mind if you ask me again about that third tier though...I haven't come to a firm conclusion about Lei Fei, and Lion and Sarah are easily exchangeable. About the same, maybe.

Actually, Llanfair, I'm going to take you up on one of your claims...you mentioned that every character had "some sort of cheesy good damage setup." What would you say Pai's is? Pai is really the only character that puzzles me...for the other characters, it's obvious to me how AM2 intended for them to be played, but I've always wondered about Pai because it doesn't seem as though she has that one thing or that one aspect that she could always depend on in crunch time. My thinking is that her LBF is probably the closest thing that she has to something being cheesy, and I've had pretty good success with it. But care to share your thoughts?

For me right now, she's probably the only character that I feel is somewhat lacking compared to the other characters...and I can't help but feel that all it would take is maybe one change in property that would bring Pai back up to everyone's level. Perhaps make the f,f+K after ST guaranteed (nothing has to be guaranteed after the f,f+K). Or make the Wind Kick after the LBF (d/f+P,K) hit middle.

I just also want to say for the record that I've used her in competitive play a lot, and that my winning percentage with her is actually better than some other characters when I play her to win (as opposed to to learn/experiment).


RE: Lion

Seeing how I wrote a Lion Dojo, ahem ahem, perhaps I'd give my two cents on what ghostdog and nycat are discussing.

- Sabaki

"> Lack of reversals.
Ehh, big deal. Sabaki's fill in the gap a bit."

That's a major understatement--I'd take Lion's sabaki over Aoi's arsenal of reversals any day. Lion's sabaki is easily one of the best in the game; maybe the second best, after Lei's.

- Weight

Actually, I agree with nycat on this one. Weight has come to really make a big difference in VF4--it's a serious disadvantage to be light. In fact, in my tiering, Wolf and Jeffry are so high only because of their weight; if they were more easily comboable against or if the lighter characters weren't so easily comboable, Wolf and Jeffry would probably slide down a few notches. Theoretically speaking, you might as well add 40 or so extra points to the life of HWs vs LWs. I figure, per round, you get about 20 extra points for landing combos possible on LWs (20 points = 2 combos with extra punch?), and about 20 points more for the HW-only combos that the opponent would have to resort to.

In VF3, outside of Taka and Aoi, weight didn't matter as much in combos as it does VF4. Wolf did his SS -> SS -> big pounce regardless, and Jeffry can kenka upper -> DEU -> pounce on whomever. Yet in VF4, it's the difference between knee -> f+P,P and knee -> P -> b+P -> pounce for Wolf, or between knee -> DEU and knee -> P -> b,f+P+K -> pounce for Jeffry, vs HWs and LWs respectively and ~30% to ~50% damage respectively.

Even then, in VF3 HWs did have some sort of a disadvantage against their speedier and more light weight opponents, but I will argue that the disadvantage of HWs being more "slow" is largely negated by the LP in VF4...with good use of the LP, Wolf and Jeffry can defend easily and set up their offense easily. And what's the benefit for the lighter characters? Does Pai or Aoi really have anything in terms of speed that gives them a significant advantage over Wolf and Jeffry? I argue no...they still need their anti-LP moves to beat out a well placed LP. If Pai and Aoi really want to press what little advantage they have by being light and fast, they'd have to pretty much play a running around, semi-machi game and poke Jeffry and Wolf at mid-range, out of LP reach.

Back to Lion. While Lion may not be officially classified as a LW, in my experience, weight class has become almost meaningless as each character seems to really have their own weight. I.e. Akira is definitely heavier than Kage and the combos possible on Akira and Kage reflect this. So, while Lion is not classified as a LW, he is still pretty damn light. In fact, I consider anyone who can be kneed -> P -> b+P -> pounce by Wolf on normal to be at a serious disadvantage, especially when playing against Wolf or Jeffry.

Finally, I think the point that nycat was trying to make is that while being light doesn't mean you're automatically weak, it's nevertheless a mark against.


Anyway, this has turned out to be a massive post. I'm sure there's enough material here to flame. Happy posting. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

I thought Jeff had one of the faster punches? Well the sheer amount of damage they get off of little mistakes is crazy enough to put them higher IMO.

 

Re: VF4 tier Wolf vs. Lion

Ice-9 started this bonfire with:To spark some discussionÂÂE and ended the first thread with:JUST FOR FUN. one more thought: In the rikioh vs. shinz mpeg where rikioh plays Wolf and shinz brings his Lion there are two separate instances where shinz hits with a FC_+P
And Wolf’s head rocks back and he retaliates and bashes Lion like a gnat. Am I missing something here or is the weight of Wolf preventing what would float most characters after this from crouch punch connects from Lion?


Thor beats Tinkerbell in most match-ups, no?
The No Mercy site has a survey and so far Akira is in first, Lion is second, Jacky third and Kage a close fourth. Kenji-san’s Lion Combo engine registered a few new combos over the Holidays.
Several of the new VF4 exclusive combos are featured in xaxak (Lion) vs. parapa_DX (Lion) media file at No Mercy site.

I’ve heard that both Jeffry and Aoi have won tournaments in Yamato VF4 Contests. Any other characters win contests in Singapore, Japan or Korea?
oral contraceptive axe kick babel makes me chuckle

 

Everybody loves pai.

Hey we actually agree on something..

Pai does seem to be on a tier (basement) all her own. I'm sorta curious to see if Llany has anything for her. Knee-able characters get free combos from their knee, generally no counter is needed for many combos (like wolf knee, low punch, shrm or jeff knee, low punch, DE-upper). Wolf and Akira get shrms, jacky gets beatknuckle, and kage gets d/f+P, despite it being unholy slow. We don't need to mention lau. Everyone in the game seems to get a free float combo starter that hits mid with the possible exception of lion (who needs a MC). Pai has the standing K, but it hits high and it's got bad recovery.

Low blue fist seems pretty fair, it's a slow and very counterable low attack (and I don't mean just the first punch to the ankles... LBF,P and LBF, P, P are all throwable. Now if low blue fist, P, K were a true combo, that might be something cheap and strong for pai to latch onto, a really damaging low attack that knocks down.

============
Pai's gradual rape:

VF2: did sick damage like everyone else. Sidekick, PPPsweep was all you needed for float combos. For throws, f,d+P on minor counter = 1/3rd lifebar. ST, [p,p] P,K = almost half. u/f+K and d/f+P (now f+P) made nice, fairy safe pokes.

VF3: gained the high kick float tool, but sidekick floats into PPPsweep were less effective, generally a slope is needed. Gained FC, f+P but it was way too counterable. u/f+K was screwed as a poke tool, f+P was a hair away from throw counterable.

VF4: Sidekick no longer knocks down (ever) so no more sidekick floats. FC, f+P improved slightly (I think it recovers a little faster if blocked). u/f+K may be back to normal since there's no stop animation. Pai gets some new attacks and improvements to formerly useless moves like f,f+K... but these moves are all weird, slow, unsafe, or hit high.

Llanfair -
I agree efforts were made to make the game fair and give everyone a fighting chance, but how can pai be on the same level as Akira? Akira has his great shrm, pai has the high kick. Akira's got at least three throws that are good for more than 50 points of damage (RBC-sidekick, ST-sgpm-dbpm, and d/f+P+G, ground punch) while pai's former best throw (her FC throw) no longer even gets her a ground punch anymore. There just isn't much to work with for pai. People will argue that you can do "all these confusing high and low and mid pokes" with pai and whittle the opponent down, but that's just stylish. Stripped down, you don't plan on winning with a variety of irritating pokes, you set up the big throw or float starter and try to outguess the opponent 3 or 4 times for the victory. Akira just doesn't need as many guesses as pai, and he's safer if he guesses wrong.

 

For punch speed, wolf and jeff have the slowest (sorta logical, they're big and fat and slow). The fastest are pai, sarah, kage, and I think lau. Akira's got a faster than average punch but not as fast as the the above.

Part of Wolf and Jeff's lower ranking is that they can't poke safely with fast mids like some characters can. Akira can toss in a quick super dashing elbow, Shun's got the d/f+P and P+K, lau and jacky have speedy, safe elbows, pai's got her f+P chop and probably the best sidekick in the game. Wolf and Jeff also have elbows and sidekicks, but I have a hard time thinking of them as "pokes", you're screwed if the attack is blocked.

It's hard to see just how important have really quick punches and pokes is until you play someone who takes advantage of wolf and jeff's slow high punch. I remember one of the most frustrating experiences in VF3 being wolf and jeff trying to overcome a kage or pai who used lots of safe P,G's and would use PPP every time they had even a hair of initiative. It's probably still frustrating in VF4, especially with the loss of low kick - throw.

 

Re: Everybody loves pai.

Well, Pai does have many ways of getting the float. d/b+P. K. D,f+P MC. LBF,P,f+P. u/f+K+G. b+P MC is a combo opportunity. Her problem is that she can't get much damage from the floats.

Are you sure about LBF,P and LBF,P,P being throw counterable when blocked? I.e. if you did LBF,P(G),P as quickly as you can, with the P(G) being blocked, the opponent can throw Pai before the second P can come out? I mean, are you sure? It could very well be that as you did P(G), you held G too long and the opponent just threw you. I mean, if LBF,P and LBF,P,P are throw counterable I don't see why Pai's P or P,P are also not throw counterable...

BTW, I don't know if you've checked out my Pai Dojo yet, but Pai's LBF is really good. It'll duck LPs! I played against a LP happy Wolf today, and the LBF works like a charm, more so if you had the advantage however. I think AM2 should have just gone all the way and given her a low reversal...or damn, just go ahead and make the LBF a true low punchs sabaki...

 

I believe the fastest punches belong to Sarah, Pai, and Aoi.

Wolf and Jeffry doesn't need a fast P, LP is enough!

 

Re: OK, here are my thoughts and tier

Actually, I agree with nycat on this one. Weight has come to really make a big difference in VF4--it's a serious disadvantage to be light. In fact, in my tiering, Wolf and Jeffry are so high only because of their weight; if they were more easily comboable against or if the lighter characters weren't so easily comboable, Wolf and Jeffry would probably slide down a few notches. Theoretically speaking, you might as well add 40 or so extra points to the life of HWs vs LWs.

Jeff, I posted that weight didn't make a difference in the way nycat ranked the characters. He mentioned weight as a reason why he ranked Lion so low. But if weight was that much of a factor, why are Aoi, Sarah, and Vanessa listed in the second tier? I agree with you that weight should be considered, but I didn't think he considered weight when he ranked those three characters.

 

Ok I just thought I remembered someone saying that I am most probally mistaken so I apologize for spreading disinformation.

 

Re: Everybody loves pai.

something about pai that may help you all to tier her:
i still haven't played vf4 (i'm from germany where you can hardly find 10 serious vf players) but in vf3 i play her almost the same way i play lion somehow. with lion for example i can mix up p, f+p, df+p, d+p, fc-f+p (db+pp, fc-df+pp) combined with a throw guessing game or the sweep for dodgers.
and i can do nearly the same with pai: p, f+p, f,f+p, d+p, fc-f+p, also combined with tg (in my opinion with quite good throws completed through her ST), a fast sweep (db+k+g /damn doesn't knock down in 4) and i also like her reverse crescent.

and there is lion's f,f+p/ b,df+p on the one and pai's b+p on the other side, the same with lion's b+p+k and pai's db+p (perhaps even lion's u+k(,k) and pai's uf+k(,k) (good for ura), both have a side exchange (pai even a low one) with guaranteed damage and fc-f+p+g (ok, lion's is much better especially in 4).

that's just something i noticed, of course they are still very different especially in 4.

and pai in general:

i'm not too sure about pai's stances, i haven't seen everything possible with them but i think they have more potential than the confusing aspect (even though this aspect isn't unimportant), who knows, did anyone think of using them in flowcharts...???

anyway, pai has everything a good character needs for me (oh sorry, that's too subjective, i should keep being objective, but it hurts to see you all tiering her so low ), i won't write everything here because i think ice already did it in his dojo that i will check out now, when i'm not satisfied with his work and my pai is bashed too much i will come (or better post) back again

TimBo

ps: are there any movies where i can see her 270-, her low side throw or her inashis (i think there are two inashis in one of the history vids)???