For fun, how would you tier thus far?

Kage queries...

I've seen Kage (back face wall in Akira's stage) toss his opponent with b+P+G and followup with a strange air combo which surprising 'Ringout' his opponent by hitting his opponent over the top of the wall.

Am i mistaken? If its possible, how did Kage do that and what is the combo of move? (Confused)

 

ISBN: 4063393984

Jeff
There's gonna be a new VF4 book that will be released on the same day as PS2 VF4.

It's not by Arcadia..neither is it published by Softbank.

It's published by some other company(dun exactly remember the name..oops~)

144 pages...quite a small book me thinks.

Go check out what the book is all about. I have no idea how to use ISBN number to check the content of the book.

 

.. kage's usual air combo after b+P+K is to do a modified knee (d/f, d/f to crouch dash, then quickly f+K while crouched to knee) ... after the knee you can do a lot of moves, including a basic combo like P, P, b+P, K.
You can also to b+P+G, then b+P,K to start a combo .. for example TFT, b+P,K .. P, u/b+K+G (kickflip).

These sort of combos will send an opponent over a low wall for the ring out.

 

Re: OK, here are my thoughts and tier

WS - while rising; another way to express WS is maybe D, neutral
DA - dodge attack; I noticed you almost never use Vanessa's DA

As for the dan thing...that's really an extremely interesting aspect of the playing culture there in Japan. I have a LOT to say on this subject, and will maybe will get around to putting it down into words some time later on.

 

Re: OK, here are my thoughts and tier

For RO over walls, if you're lucky, Kage can izuna drop (b+P+G,u+P+G) and land on top of them as they slide out, although it doesn't have nearly as much RO potential as even a PPb+PK.

 

Re: OK, here are my thoughts and tier

dodge attack,

I am trying to use it in my play. Hey what is the folowup after the dodge attack? For MT, is lightning elbow guaranteed? I read some thing about 50% combo regarding Vanessa Ballet kick (her dodge attack) but they never say anything about the moves.

Chris told me for Jacky's DA a throw is guaranteed at close range. Vanessa seems to have a similar DA. I think a blocked DA is throw counterable right?

 

Re: tiering rationale

OK, some people have e-mailed/ICQed me to ask me how I came up with my rankings and to justify them...first I just want to reiterate that playing in Tokyo really makes it seem as if there are NO tiers at all. I certainly did not fear playing against Akira over Pai, because my chances of losing were the same, heh heh. Although, I did notice that whenever a "good scrub" Jacky challenged and won a match, that Jacky often did not get many challengers after, except by other "good scrub" Jackys or players with the same dan. But I think this is more a case of people not wanting to have a headache playing against him (and especially an uninteresting version) than anything else.

So just to reiterate...if you lived in Tokyo...it's very hard to separate characters apart. Despite paper theory, in practice and empirically, VF4 is really very balanced. Here's to hoping that Ver. C will make it even more so for the rest of us.

That said, I still stand by my earlier rankings, although I would like to switch Lion with Lei. I need to emphasize that the gap between rankings/tiers are extremely tiny. The gap between Akira and Pai is nothing like the gap in TTT between Jin and Jack...it's more like...Jin to Devil maybe.

1. Akira - Well, no surprises here, other people have said enough of why Akira is probably the strongest in the game.

2. Jacky - His SS, BKC, DA, and elbow are good, but the biggest thing about Jacky is of how easy it is for him to control the game, and I think that's just huge. Jacky can play the game however he likes...machi, offensively, lots of quick attacks, lots of big risk big reward attacks, etc. There is a lot of flexibility in how you want the pace of the match to be dictated.

3. Lau - An offensive machine with just tremendous damage potential. I think, right now, for many of us, when we think of Lau, we think of him as constantly rushing, slightly out of control character. Well, just imagine him in the hands of a crafty, great yomi player who actually controls every single hit/attack...scary. A lot of people think Lion when they think of Chibita...and his Jacky is feared...but his Lau is FRIGGIN awesome.

4. Shun - He doesn't seem to have that many options, but when you control the game the way Shun can, you don't need that many options. His machi game is very strong, and once he has drunk enough, his extremely high damage potential more than compensates the perceived lack of offensive options. I don't think he's lacking anything at all.

5. Wolf - Nobody has talked about his hit throw, but in reality, this is what puts Wolf at this level. His LP cut is just awesome as well.

6. Jeffry - I slightly regret putting Jeffry so high; previously, I thought Wolf and Jeffry are about the same, but now I think Wolf is definitely better. Anyway, what's there not to like about Jeffry? Tons of options, great damage potential, lots of throw opportunities, etc.

7. Kage - Not as weak as I initially thought or other people still think; Kage's quite good! At first I thought AM2 wanted him to be a finesse character, which I would be glad for, but nope, he can still be played like an annoying poking biatch. Looks like the speedy punch in Ver. C will catapault him all the way there, although the b,b+K+G non-knock down sounds promising. IMO, he does not need to be strengthened.

8. Aoi - Overall great character with lots of options, tricks, and character-specific stuff. True, her damage potential is less and she would probably have to make more correct guesses than others to win, but she's the kind of character where it's easy to force the guessing game. She would be higher, but I haven't seen anyone dominate with her and she's just too comboable.

9. Lion - The kind of character that doesn't seem that great on paper but is easy to be very effective with and force the guessing game. Lots and lots of really good Lions in Tokyo. His awesome sabaki is what allows him to run with everyone else; I cannot emphasize how important Lion's sabaki is at high levels of play.

10. Lei Fei - His stance moves and mix-ups are varied and confusing, his u/f+K+G, lunging fist, d/f+P+G, and d/f,d/f+P,P are excellent, but it's really his scary damage potential that makes him dangerous.

11. Sarah - To be good with Sarah, you need to be a really good poker. Great pokes with good attack damage potential.

12. Vanessa - The most versatile character, but unfortunately, in DS, it's difficult for her to control the game, and in MT, she can control the game only in one way. That's why, even though I think she's a brilliant character and play her a lot, at the average high level, she's way down here. That said, I've seen her played in a number of ways and they all can be effective: she can be played with finesse, poking-style, LP whore, machi, in-your-face offensive, etc. (Unlike Jacky, however, it's not as easy for Vanessa to force the opponent to play her game).

13. Pai - To be good with Pai, the player has to be good; there's not much in Pai that will win you the match...i.e., nothing "scrub-like" that you can depend on over and over again. However, she has good basic moves and she has a mid-range game that is fast, safe, and with decent damage potential. She also has great mobility, and you really can play her "hit and dash" style.


One interesting experiment is to take Summers' recent post about the Japanese tournament and to use that as a ranking. At the tournament level, we can probably assume that learning curves are not as big of a variable...players enter tournaments to win, and presumably, they would pick the character they think has the best chance of winning. So, overall, it could almost serve as a ranking/tiering.

Summers just recently sent me the updated numbers:

1. Jacky 131
2. Akira 106
3. Lau 95

4. Kage 67
5. Wolf 62
6. Shun 54
7. Aoi 47

8. Lion 42
9. Jeffry 41
10. Vanessa 37

11. Lei Fei 28
12. Sarah 26
13. Pai 25

761(total amt)

I put spaces to separate into groups such that they may serve as different tiers. Vanessa and Lei are probably not as representative; since they are new characters, so it's no wonder that fewer people are able to bring them to a tournament level. But I think the rest of the rankings serve as an interesting benchmark...


Finally, in closing, it's important to reiterate (again) that his is all really just an academic exercise...thought not quite as balanced as VF3tb, VF4 is already very balanced compared to other fighting games.


EDIT:

There are still a couple of regulars who haven't put their thoughts down...Myke, alucard, spotlite, Feixaq, Alan...how would you tier/rank in your mind? I'd love to hear what you guys think!

 

Re: OK, here are my thoughts and tier

Alan: DA being throw counterable, oh yeah definitely.

 

Re: tiering rationale

Jeff, nice way to wrap this thread up.

2. Jacky - His SS, BKC, DA
<snip>

Just for clarification:
SS == shuffle step
BKC == beat knuckle combos
What's DA? dodge attack? <boggle>

13. Pai - To be good with Pai, the player has to be good; there's not much in Pai that will win you the match...i.e., nothing "scrub-like" that you can depend on over and over again.

Yep, but there was something that started annoying the hell out of me that last time I was fighting the local Pai enthusiast. The pounce after her double high kick is guaranteed because the second kick slams you to the ground. KK -> pounce does ~35% damage too. Very scrubby and high damage IMO... but I'm the one getting hit by the damn high kick... /versus/images/icons/frown.gif/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif