Frame Data: Hitting on Different Active Frames

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Green_Tea, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. Green_Tea

    Green_Tea New Member

    I'm wondering if I do an attack with multiple active frames and I hit on the second active frame. Do I add +1 to my hit, block, and counterhit framedata?
     
  2. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    I'm not 100% confident, but based on how various sources display frame information - the frame difference shown in the VFDC Guard / Hit / CH column will not changed based on which active frame you hit your opponent.
     
  3. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    I'm not so sure on this and I don't think there's much info about it here.

    Just done some testing and as far as I can see, you add the remainder of the active frames.

    For example if a move is 4 active frames and it hits on the very last frame then the you add +3. I tested this with Akira and used [2][1][4][P] with CPU set to block and counterattack with 2p.

    [2][1][4][P] has 4 active frames and is +3 on block but thanks to the extra +3 frames from it hitting on the last frame I was able to beat my opponents 2p with a 17f move, in this case [K]+[G] (release [G] within 1 frame).

    Also just tested it trying to beat the [2][P] with an 18f move as the math says this should work too. Akira's [3][3][P] also beats [2][P] in this situation.

    I'm pretty poor at explaining things and I discovered this on my own a long time ago so hope it makes sense.
     
  4. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    If you mean advantage, then yes.
     
  5. Libertine

    Libertine The REAL Top Tier! Content Coordinator Silver Supporter Content Manager Brad

    Depending upon which active frame lands, it could also alter whether moves are natural combos on guard/hit/counter hit and whether or not certain combos from launchers can be made.
     
  6. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    Feck - if you have time can you repeat it again and tell me if you see a "yellow flash" or a "white flash" on your hit?

    I mentioned this on the shout box with you: if possible, record your testings on your Happauge at 60 FPS with command input frame display. If the file size is too big, zip the file. If you can do it, I will PM you my email address, so that I can analyze it.

    ---

    What I posted above is an assumption based on Japanese blogs and files (Edit: VF5 and above; I finally saw the section in the VF4 frame guide that Erdraug and Libertine pointed at) indicating character moves completing animation at different frames depending on whether the move misses the opponent, is guarded by the opponent, or hits the opponent. If that is true, it suggests that the game's system adjust the amount of frames of "recovery" (as used in the wiki and frame guide) depending on how the move interacts with the opposing character.

    The posts by Feck and Manji suggests: If you make contact on an opponent on later active frames, then +1 or more frames should be added to the GD/Hit/CH frame difference info. That statement assumes a constant "recovery" frame amount for the character performing the move (independent of the contact against the opposing character). As stated in this post, "recovery" frame amount appears to be variable for the character performing the move [dependent on the game system deciding the number of frames of "recovery" based on the contact against the opponent (guard or hit?)].

    Again, I admit that I can be completely wrong. The topic that Green Tea made is something I am unclear of, so I am curious to see actual true data on this subject matter (currently, all my stuff is still in storage, so I cannot personally test things out myself).
     
  7. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    I will try to say it more clearly.

    Total frames of your attack are: execution frames + active frames + recovery frames. For the sake of example, lets look at Akiras dashing elbow.
    execution: 14
    active: 2
    recovery: total= 36 - 16 = 20.

    Note: the amounts of advantage on hit/block is dependant on how much hit/blockstun the move causes, so these numbers do not directly tell that. However, we know already the advantage of DE on block, its -5. This is when the move connects at pointblank range, in other words, during its first active frame, the 'normal' situation.

    Now if you distance yourself properly, its possible to connect the move at its latter active frame making the first active frame miss the opponent just barely. This means the opponent will go into the blockstun 1 frame later (its still the same amount of blockstun) compared to how soon Akira will recover from the attack. 1 frame difference respectively.

    In practise, this will make the DE behave as if it was -4 on block, so Akira recovers that one frame faster.

    Whether its possible to make all attacks connect on latter hitframes, I do not know, since this is hitbox and character dependant (the attack traveling forward when its active). I do know, that generally in theory it is possible, and this does happen.

    I dont think what you are describing: "different ending animation depending the attack whiffs the opponent", apply here, since the attack IS connecting, just not on the first active frames. I suspect its something like Wolf frankensteiner, if it doesnt connect during its active frames, Wolf will land his ass on the floor.

    ps. Even if what I said wasnt completely correct, it is a theory and it satisfies what happens in reality accurately enough so it can be used.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depending upon which active frame lands, it could also alter whether moves are natural combos on guard/hit/counter hit and whether or not certain combos from launchers can be made.</div></div>

    What Lib said is technically correct. However, since you are basically connecting moves at max distance here, its possible that distance becomes a bigger factor in the combo than frame advantage.

    What this technique can certainly be used for, is to make unsafe moves safer, and creating 'frame traps'.

    Due to VF being a game with high mobility, this framethingy is rarely a factor in VF, since distancing yourself correctly is pretty hard with opponent moving so fast. Compare to 2D games where characters walk back and forward slowly with their 'footsies'.

    pps. In 2D games this technique is known as "meaty attack", which means connecting an attack during its latter active frames in an okizeme situation. It can also make, for example, divekicks safer if you make them connect close to the ground.
     
  8. Dennis0201

    Dennis0201 Well-Known Member

    Hum, interesting. If that is the result you test and the answer is positive. But how can we measure our moves hit on the very last frame? And how come this situation never been discussed before?

    Manji, I think you were trying to say DE is -5 on block, not -4 based on the normal case you mentioned above.
     
  9. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    Yes. Refer to VF4 Frames Guide under section Reducing your disadvantage.

    But the 64 million dollar question should be how do you know you've made contact on the later active frames? Unless you can force some repeatable and guaranteed setup, then you have know way of visually determining the active frame.
     
  10. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Akai, pretty sure it's yellow Flash i'd have to check again though to be sure. I don't mind recording a few things and uploading them if anyone wants to clarify how it works, i'd need a few simple ways to test it though, most of the setups I tried to test it with last night were too difficult in dojo.

    Like Myke said, I doubt it has any practical applications in a match.
     
  11. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

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    Myke, i propose you have the VFdc site give a cookie to members that have visited the "frame guide" page.

    That way when somebody reads the command lists, if they don't have the cookie the website should go "HELLO THERE IF THIS IS YOUR FIRST TIME READING THE COMMAND LISTS PLEASE LOOK UP THE TWO LINKS TO THE TOP RIGHT FOR AN EXPLANATION OF ABBREVIATIONS & HOW FRAMES WORK".

    Another idea would be to have a text pop up when the mouse hovers over the name of each column explaining the abbreviations and/or giving a link to the frames guide & legend.
     
  12. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    I guess it might be possible to learn to judge the correct distance on the screen. There is no visual cue to it, it would be just a feeling you would develop if you would use it a lot.

    That said, I dont make real use of this but Ive always wondered why nobody has even tried to make more use of it.
     
  13. blossy1000

    blossy1000 Well-Known Member

    I've been experimenting with this somewhat... I don't know how it works but this has been discussed before so I messed around with it a while back. Since Sarah's [9][K] is -12 on block and has 9 active frames I figured it should be possible to reduce the advantage enough to make it safe with a bit of range or on oki. I've tested in the dojo to have [9][K] blocked and then block/evade the opponents jab, which is possible but I need quite a bit of range especially for 10f jabs.
     
  14. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    Manji - the different ending animation I am referring to is for move's like Lau's [6][P] and [4][6][P]. The "total frame" of "recovery" differs depending on the type of contact or no contact made against opponent.

    VF5FS Frame Info Examples:

    Lau [6][P] (Lettuce's Blog)
    "Recovery" if Move Whiffs: 22f
    "Recovery" if Move is Guarded: 24f
    "Recovery" if Move hits opposing character: 24f

    Lau [4][6][P] (Master Guide / Lettuce's Blog)
    "Recovery" if Move Whiffs: 27f
    "Recovery" if Move is Guarded: 27f
    "Recovery" if Move hits opposing character: 25f

    Sarah [P] (Master Guide / Dora Nekoaki's Blog)
    "Recovery" if Move Whiffs: 15f
    "Recovery" if Move is Guarded: 15f
    "Recovery" if Move hits opposing character: 12f

    Jacky [P] (Master Guide / Dora Nekoaki's Blog)
    "Recovery" if Move Whiffs: 15f
    "Recovery" if Move is Guarded: 12f
    "Recovery" if Move hits opposing character: 12f

    Many people in this thread has already stated that the exact active frame that made contact with a guarding opponent would result in different frame advantage/disadvantage. The confusion I have is how does the game system compute which active frame (active frame 1, 2, 3, etc) made contact and type of contact while also determining the amount of frames it will take for the character to "recover" from the move. The recovery of a move, at least based on the blogs, indicate recovery of a move is not constant.

    Not sure if what I am writing am making sense...maybe the blogs were wrong with their frame information or maybe the active frame mentioned on here does not necessarily apply to hit and counter hit. This is more of an esoteric frame issue than actual practical application.
     
  15. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The confusion I have is how does the game system compute which active frame (active frame 1, 2, 3, etc) made contact and type of contact while also determining the amount of frames it will take for the character to "recover" from the move. The recovery of a move, at least based on the blogs, indicate recovery of a move is not constant. </div></div>

    You do realize that system MUST already keep track of all that, since otherwise we wouldnt have any of the different hit types or advantages/disadvantages on block..

    Once FS comes and if its training mode really has the frameadvantages visible, this should be simple to test. Until then, don't fuss about it. Its not like this is a terribly important technique.
     
  16. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that system MUST already keep track of all that, since otherwise we wouldnt have any of the different hit types or advantages/disadvantages on block.</div></div>

    I do realize that. That is why I think there is a slight logic issue with the explanations presented so far, if moves do indeed recover differently depending on type of contact and what else.

    "Contact against an opponent on the n active frame, one should add n-1 frames to the frames listed in Guard/Hit/Counter Hit columns" is not a sufficient explanation to address the recovery differences between a character move that whiffs, gets guarded, or hits the opponent.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once FS comes and if its training mode really has the frameadvantages visible, this should be simple to test. Until then, don't fuss about it. Its not like this is a terribly important technique.</div></div>

    If the frame is shown like how it is on the arcade replays, it may not necessary be truly accurate of the situation. As I wrote earlier, it is more of an esoteric issue than practical. Since the issue was brought up, I brought the issue up :p.
     
  17. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    Yeah, but if we could to create situation where the followup situation wouldnt match the frameadvantage displayed, then wed know that the system wasnt designed that way, but the trick would still work. The other option is that the system would actually show different frameadvantages. Or this issue wouldnt exist in FS. In any event, we would gain information.
     
  18. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    Libertine mentioned that he saw different frame advantages displayed for the same moves, but I have not really paid too much attention to Final Showdown replays with frame data displayed.

    The cool thing about FS console port is having the record function available. That and the ability to display the command input/frame counter will help tease a lot of the unclear stuff.
     
  19. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    Uh, wasn't even an ingame excercise in Evo to make Kage's 9K+G hit on later active frames during the opponent's tech roll to make it + frames instead of even?
     
  20. akai

    akai Well-Known Member

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    I think the exercise was to beat an opponent's rising attack with a 21 damage move?
     

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