frames WHAT????

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by ghetto-SHUN, Dec 3, 1999.

  1. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    It has come to my attention that must of these threads revolve alot around frame stats. Creative flowchart and strategy concepts have seemingly taken a back seat.Players such as myself and adamYUKI are what you would call instinct players, primarily.
    We FEEL the fight rather than attaching numbers to every move we see.
    PLEASE don't misunderstand me, i have nothing against all you technical players or your approuch to being successful at the game, but some of you guys seem to be missing something in your knowledge of VF, just as i might be, because in all truth, i don't accurately know all of shuns frame stats.
    So tell me folks, why isn't instinct and flow discussed as much as numbers and frames? I'm lacking on one end, and to me these threads are lacking on another.
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    but how do you talk about intuition and feel? for example, more that once I've been told I play "different" than many other people, but I don't have a clue what they're talking about. Hyun's said it, Jeff's said it, I think you said it one time, and others too. So what's up? Are my flow charts funny or something? I'd love to know, it might improve my game, but I don't expect you'd to be able to explain it.

    on the other hand, frame stats are much easier to discuss, and they lend one an air of legitimacy. authority through numbers, baby!

    oh, I was wondering: what moves can I use to beat your chouwan right off the start? I tried a number of things last time; I thing they all failed (u+P+K, d+K, f+P, d/f+P...didn't try d+P+E though).
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    E -> CD like a charm!

    ice-9 | Sennin
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "why isn't instinct and flow discussed as much as numbers and frames?"
    There are probably more technical players than there are instinctive players on this message board.

    My instincts are based on my knowledge of frames & numbers.
    Attacking and defending is a lot easier when you know who has the advantage.
    Akira the Technical Wonder
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Player "types"

    This point brought up by Nelson actually reminds me of one interesting article in the tb mook.In this article the gamest writers divide (vf) players into 6 catagories:

    [ps. my japanese ain't that great so if there is any mistakes please feel free to point them out, ah, also i will only "list" the points out instead of the "interview style" they have in the mook.]
    [anything inside this [] is my personal comment]

    *A lot of them like to study/investigate on theories/game system...
    *....and hate/dislike people who don't
    *If someone say something wierd/wrong(about the basics/game system during conversation, they tend to easily get intimitated/annoyed by it....
    *Kinda similar to "Top Heavy" people at the above point.
    *but there seem to be an interesting "line" dividing these 2 types of players. If Both types of people engage in conversation, it gets noisy/quarrelsome fairly quickly when there are only "Top Heavy" people left talking....
    *kinda feel like "Master & Fellower" relationship (?) /images/icons/laugh.gif but if you watch the real playstyle you can easily feel the difference, ah, also the outcome of the match.
    *Like to avoid any "not-guranteed" yomi;for example, even if they can easily pressure oppts with option select, they do low punch; oppt staggers, CD low punch.
    *anyway the first object is to stop oppts before applying option select. Also they likes to Escape, CD cancel, low Punch a lot.
    *Other than the comon/familiar yomi situations, they tend to observe first.
    *If they are hit by a wierd attack/pattern,next time they will always choose to watch, never try to force their way through.
    *And there, if they are thrown while "observing", they will start panicking...saying something like "i don't feel like playing anymore.." "i can't win in this game"
    *but even with all that whinning most of them choose to pick up the game again, or just whine when playing.
    *If it is possible to counter with a hit move, they will almost never use throws. Remove all the unsure elements from their game, but of course they also do consider damage efficiency factor.
    *Like to PK, even when they can counter with higher damage moves.Very close to make people feel like they are chicken players.
    *Like to backstep crouch backward. [i.e back dash, D/B]
    *LOVE fuzzy guarding.

    -Top Heavy (umm, strange english cuz they translated it straight from japanese, but i think they mean players that talks a lot about Theory)
    *kinda like "Steady" style in a way that both likes to study/investigate system.
    *Lot of them like to talk about extremely high lvl stuffs, but most of the time they can't do it in real fight.
    *In other word, they are setting too high a goal for themself.
    *"Steady" players know their limits, and adjust accordingly, "Top heavy" players will try even if they can't really do it. For example, when they said they have a pretty solid E-GTE, in a lot of case they are just stand guarding.
    *"why didn't i escape?/that throw isn't breakable...." Said the "Top Heavy" player, but actually he didn't input any (correct) throw escape command.
    *"hey how can you miss this blah blah combo in this situation?" a "Top heavy" player trying to guide a player. But when he is actually playing he also only does simple/easy combos.
    *again, Lot of talk but Unable to do them.
    *Often time they rely too much on theory, but their reaction isn't really up to par.[picture example in the mook: wolf guard akira's single palm, wolf starts to think "Ok, single palm blocked, hmm... in this situation it's close range so i get 9 fr i should.. ARRRRK {Wolf ate a SPoD}]
    *there is no stopping sign for them when they start to investigate, until the very minor/often unnecessary details are solved.
    *Despite the Looong way they chose to investigate the system, often time they do come up with some new fact/information.
    *incredible/admirable urge/desire to seek knowledge.
    *Also, many times they like to grab information from the web; Gamest info are a bit too obvious so they don't use them.
    *never use "i am not sure but" type of wording when stating his founding.
    *"Other people's foundings are MY foundings" altitude
    *LOVE the word "Frame" /images/icons/laugh.gif

  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ghetto-shun: There are posts that center on strategy and not frames. I have written a few. Ironically, one of them is one I wrote about playing Shun (in a thread that was started by someone else who was asking for your help). If you read it, you'll see I stuck only to strategy and philosophy, not a word about frames. In fact, I focused on instinct and feel... I even invited you to comment on it. Hey, if you want to see more posts on strategy, then why not contribute by writing such posts, or participate by commenting on them when they are posted? If the only posts that get commented on are those discussing frames, well then they will remain the predominant topics of discussion.
    Just a thought that's meant to be helpful..
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Akira the Technical Wonder"
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Player "types" Poison & Gambling

    *easy to be misunderstand by other players....
    *actually, if you look at it from another angle, perhaps they should actually be labeled with "easily understood" by other players. /images/icons/laugh.gif
    *A lot of Poison Players are actually highly competent.
    *If they totally read oppts' move, they like to do the easiest/cheapiest move or embarassing moves to finish oppt off.
    *Like to piss people off; They obtain the highest pleasure when they are able to damage their oppts mentally. For example wolf players that use LevelChop [P+K] as the counter move. Of course only in guaranteed situations. Other example including after staggering their oppt, they will do reversal to catch oppt's berserking attacks. And when they do succeed, they got this calm face but you can easily tell they are laughing from inside. Actually, most of the "poison" players like to maintent expressionless face and pretend to be cool.
    *Likes to make cool hits/finishes.
    *love to use the same move over and over, for example elbow,elbow,elbow, wait a moment elbow again.
    *Lot of unnecessary down attack, after KO with KneeStrike[Jacky's f,b+P+G],SoccerballKick, they will Soccerballkick the downed/koed oppt one more time.
    *Picture example : Akira pressuring Kage, akira dash forward to make kage yomi hit/throw..... Akira player scream in rejoice when his Yoho hit Kage in the face

    *Gambling ~= BIG moves
    *basically high risk high return (example: lot and lots of short shoulder)
    *when Gambling type of player pick up his fav. move, he will try it over and over and over. For them fav. moves = THE counter move.
    *....and when their fav. moves fail to hit, they will try to cover it up by saying it is part of his "idealizm"
    *um, for some reason this type of player tend to do well at the big tourney.
    * well, not really, cuz their attack pattern tend to be pretty simple and easy to read; But.. since they also tend to berserk a lot.... All together it kinda makes them hard to yomi against (?), there is this interesting balance here.
    *Examples of berserk Attack: looks like sarah is gonna low kick, but a dragon kanon came out; and when low kick is coming they come out all of a sudden [this part is hard to translate, somebody help ;_;], so oppt got MCed.
    *Irrelevant to skill of command input, "gamble" type players tend to get really intense/putting lots force on their shoulders when they play.
    *sometimes it is simply becuz they are bad at command input, or reaction is slow, or /images/icons/laugh.gif using "it's too troublesome!" excuse to cover his below par natural ability....
    *.. But there are cases where the above statement is untrue.Mostly Akira players, who never EVER seem to miss SPoD. Incredible concentration disallow any big dmg chances to run away.
    *of course the "NEVER EVER" is also part of their "Idealizm" /images/icons/laugh.gif
    *Basically these guys like to start the offense first.
    *..but they are weak against people who simply don't react with them.
    *also EXTREMELY weak against fuzzy-guarders, ah also weak against "Sukashi" [sorry can't find the right word for it, but bascially the backstep/players who concentrating on making oppt's moves whiff] players... and when Gambling player's move whiff, they will start bitching so much that they deny any existence of human emotions inside the Sukashi player /images/icons/laugh.gif."WHAT A BORING JERK!"...for example.
    -Picture example : Jacky's elbow is guarded by Lau...Jacky KICKFLIP! NEAAAAYAA!.

    Egoistic, Natural next
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Player "types" Poison & Gambling

    Is there a profile for "hack"?

    "Gambler" sounds pretty familiar. I always go for E u+K,K, even against characters I have no business trying that against. i have sub-par input ability. my shoulders always get tight. and Shang can tell when I half-circle because the machine shakes.

    ps thanks for translating this stuff Mike. it's really interesting.
  10. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    Hey Nelson, it's Bryan from NY; long time no see. I live in LA now. Last time I saw you was at the port authority about a year ago, I came to saw goodbye. I talked to Tetsuya recently in Japan, he's still playing at Kani Spo (?).

    Anyway, I agree with you in terms of the frames/natural approach, and it brings up an interesting thing I remember talking to Tetsuya about. After the last Gamest Mook came out I was curious about what the famous players said in the interviews. He told me that for the most part, they seemed to answer really technical questions with responses like "i don't know". The one that stands out in my mind was Oosu Akira (if I remember right); when asked about frames, he said that he didn't know anything about frames, except that kage's punch is 8 (or 9 or whatever) frames. That's it. He said that Chibita was really like this "i dunno, i dunno...." Tetsuya summed it up by saying "they are natural fighters". Anyway, I can't read japanese, so I can't say for sure, but that's what my friend said.

    anyway, have fun. later, Nelson.

  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I think that's Kyasao who actually said that. Amazing huh? Great Kage player, highly respected, and the only stat he knows is that Kage's punch is 8 frames.

    ice-9 | Sennin
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Player "types"-Egoistic & Natural

    Thanks Peter ! here comes the rest (man am I easy to get motivated or what /images/icons/crazy.gif ) :
    [ps.btw, i think Shota is gonna be pretty pissed when he find out i translated this article (with bad translation too [​IMG]!), i think these and the interviews are some of his favourates *GRIN*

    - Egoistic :

    *Some familiar example with these "stubborn" players are like:Even if their elbow are guarded they go for throw anyway, or low kick normal hit, throw.

    *If you think it is part of their "strategic yomi" then you are wrong, "Egoistic " players think the privilege/choices of attacking is always theirs, in other words they kinda have this "2D" feels.

    *This type of players are particularly strong against "players that likes to observe"... Especially "Ichigen-san" type players, [people with alot of opinions? perhaps "Top heavy" players? I really aren't sure what it means...Japanese expert please help [​IMG] ] It often turns out to be a one-side R*PE show.After all the beatings it creates the illusions of " Man! he is too damn good! " inside the Top heavy players' brain.
    " I don't want to play this guy in the rest of my LIFE ! "...said a totally wasted "Top Heavy" player, failed to realize that his oppt is simply not yomi with him at ALL.

    *Even the pretty good players seem to have trouble with them.
    "I won't lose next time..".... said a determined player, lost the next game again.

    *So can you say "Egoistic" players are strong overall? The answer to this question is really "diverged". Winning players with this style can win, but the losing players probably won't win much in the rest of their life.

    *To further explain the above point: When Egoistic players lost,a lot of time they do not think about why they lost and how to fix the problems. Often they blame their own miss to their oppts' play (style). For example, they get mad when they got thrown by oppt's "throw escape throw" [i.e.Throw that is perhaps intended to be throw break]

    *This certainly isn't helping them improve their game.In fact, this "Egoizm" of Egoistic players often are what is really stopping them to be a strong player.

    *A lot of them likes to tie themselve up with many rules or "style".

    *Examples are: Backdash and down attack/pounce are prohibited by these guys. Down attacks prohibitions in particular, is very unfair cuz how some of the characters are.Especially players using characters that don't have good down attacks, often entitle themselve "Okizeme-focusing player"[remember no-down-sei players?], and they likes to ask their oppt to do the same thing.

    *"I lost only because the I wasn't using down-attack." so said an "Egoistic" player, came to this conclusion immedieatly after lost a match.

    *So is there any strong point in this perhaps shall we say "self-satisfying" style of play? Well, probably as all they like to say... "if we play with this blah blah rule, and that blah blah prohibition, I AM the BEST! " /images/icons/laugh.gif

    - Natural

    *Basically players with good reflexs/body abilities.

    *One example is when you ask them how they did certain thing, often time they will answer with "I donno, i just do it/feel it/push the buttons"

    *They are often unusually good at guarding/defense.

    *Have good "eyes" [i.e. good hand/eye co-ordination]

    *No matter how they say "i donno, i just feel it", they probably reacted to oppt's motion and pushed the guard button.

    *Even when they are less stats-concious["without concious" is the word they use in the book ^^; ], they do prepare themself with certain lvl of knowledge as well.

    *However, this so-call knowledge mostly came from watching "Theory-type" players' play. "Ah I see, so that is what i have need to do there..." said an inspired Natural player, too bad eventhough he has learned the strategic/pattern, he has obsolutely no idea why and how the thing works.

    *They tend to pick up/learn techniques by feelings.

    *A lot of time they can pull off stunts that steady players can understand but can never do. And when you ask them..."Well, my body moved itself.../images/icons/laugh.gif"; often time they can't even explain their own plays. Even if they try to explain, they still end with "i just do it..."sort of reasoning.

    *Even the guides they wrote often have this wierd logic/reasoning in it. [They prolly talking about Kyasao here ^^;..]
    "Well, normal players won't be able to do this...(so write it over)" said the chief editor...leaving the author[Kyasao] with a puzzled/surprised expression on his face.

    *They can't really get into conversation with the Theory-type players.Nor have they shown much interest/effort in obtaing new information.In other words.Overall, they are just lazy. /images/icons/laugh.gif

    *Picture example in the mook: Kashiwa Jeffrey pressuring Onsu Akira,
    "oh well, i will just rotate the stick and press P+G repeatly...." -Onsu's thought....
    Akira broke Jeffrey's d+P+G throw.
    "GAAAAAAAAR! WHY is it broken?! this is already the 5th consective time! Onsu you are WIERD/a freak!" -Kashiwa's whinning
    [That conclude this translation. Hope you all enjoy it. Ah, also, please don't feel offended by the words in this article, there are these red words on the the first page of the article..]

    <font color=red> "A lot of the wording/sentences in this article are merely results of stereotypes and misunderstandings, so please find a way to feel the "Love" inside the article, and kindly forgive all our rudeness." </font color=red>

    [Also, i forgot to point out that they drew a diagram in the mook, bascially classifying Poison/Top Heavy/Steady into "Theory-type" and "Natural/Egoistic/Gambling" into "Feeling-type" ]
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Player "types"-Egoistic & Natural

    Mike, let me express my gratitude for the translation. It was very enjoyable and fun to read. It must have been hard work for you, and I am among those (probably everybody on the site) who certainly appreciate your taking the time to do it for us. I like those cute icons as well. If you feel like translating more stuff, that would be great too. :)
    Sincerely , Imashroom
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ::I think that's Kyasao who actually said that. Amazing huh? Great Kage player, highly respected, and the only stat he knows is that Kage's punch is 8 frames.::

    Assuming he wasn't just being coy, dissembling or humble. But I don't see the big deal. To me it is very obvious that one can play great without knowing any stats. It's like a hitter in baseball who doesn't know any stats. He just has an intuitive timing, a good swing, and knows things like what pitches are likely to be thrown (not exact percentages) and their relative speeds (not in exact miles per hour). Nevertheless, VF3tb has a beautiful theory that underlies it, and for those who choose to study this theory, it can be fun to learn frame rates and other stats. Maybe even use them as a guide -- just don't let them replace experience and intuition. As I've said before, I love discovering and playing around with all of the game's moves, but this is separate from how well or bad I play. It's just an added extra... Think of a DVD issue of a movie in which there is additional material added (e.g., director's commentary) -- it's not necessary for enjoyment of the film, but provides something that interests one who is a student of the film. I view myself, not just as a player of VF3tb, but as a student and aficionado as well. I don't know how well I'm communicating in this post, so I apologize if I come off a bit confusing...sometimes it's just so hard to put thoughts/feelings into words...
    Cheers, Imashroom
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Oops, I forgot to mention the one thing that made that quote truly interesting--Kyasao is a GAMEST writer. Yup, he's the guy who writes all those sections on Kage that many Kage players are dying to read. Now only to realize that in all those guides there is not one mention of any stats, except maybe that single standing punch. /images/icons/wink.gif

    ice-9 | Sennin
  16. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    I would also like to thank mike for all his input.It was very enjoyable to read. I've always felt like i fit under the category of NATURAL player. Moves come out of nowhere and my hands just execute them. Half the time i forget how my shun comes out on top. I think i'll start looking more into stats for shun and other characters, it could only improve my game, which is already very effective and potent.

    Hey mike, I played you 30 games straight in omaha and feel i have a pretty good idea of where you fall. Could you let us know to see if i'm right?
  17. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    Re: Player "types"

    My moneys on STEADY.
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Player "types"

    well, i am not so sure if i am good enuf to fit into steady catagory heheh, i think i am more or less inside "top-heavy" still. I often try to do a lot of things beyond my abilities during the match.

    Perhaps when Shota is back he can give us some examples of famous player for each catagory. Since all i known is from mooks/web brd, i don't think it is convincing at all to talk about them here.

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