frames

I've been browsing the site for a couple of days in search of info (or in FAQ form) of how you can actually determine the frame count of movement or moves, and have had no luck unfortunatley, but i was wondering if somebody can explain to me how to do so. (as far as i know, it also does not explain in PS2 any training modes..)

i only really know the frame count of fundamantals (i.e the activation of a standard throw , low + high punches, certain moves and the understanding of frame advantage / disadvantage) however, i've never really known how to work this out for myself.

i was wondering if i can be helped.. i'm sorry that i can't make this post sound any less n00bish, but i guess i could be good for future resource....

P.S if there are any faqs or guides, please direct me to them. thx

 

It's not really something that you can work out for yourself. The frame information has to be provided by SEGA, or one has to work it out with complicated microcontroller setups like 1/60 does -- even then I get the feeling it's more voodoo than science.


cheers,
kbcat -- even though the perfect guide doesn't have frame stats is has detailed counter information for every move -- just as useful -- the only frame stat that I think one needs beyond that is the execution time of a move.

 

i never believed that, and i think the trend of axing co-re times in the vf3 era was crap. recovery times were really nice to have because you got a sense of what you could counterattack with when a move whiffed, and whiffed moves happen a lot..not as much as blocked or hit moves, but it's something important to think about. i.e. move x whiffs near your head; do you have enough time for a throw or a counterattack using move z? rec times would give you a much better idea.

 

ok, i just had to read GLC' s general guide in the VF4 section to understand at "exe" is an abbreviation of frames, though this term is'nt consistently used on the VFDC forums, i'm sorry to have caused unnecessary querey as i did'nt before understand whilst using the character moveslist section.

but yes, i was hoping to find out more information of some of the new moves in EVO, or atleast be abit more accurate when trying out new things. just the concept of being abit sharper in knowlege as i did'nt fully understand how so many people give knowlege about frame data so accuratley. i thought it was naturally something you could determine yourself.

sorry for wasting your time.

 

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i never believed that, and i think the trend of axing co-re times in the vf3 era was crap. recovery times were really nice to have because you got a sense of what you could counterattack with when a move whiffed, and whiffed moves happen a lot..not as much as blocked or hit moves, but it's something important to think about. i.e. move x whiffs near your head; do you have enough time for a throw or a counterattack using move z? rec times would give you a much better idea.

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I agree, I would definitely prefer the precise frame data for each move and the hit-stun/block-stun formulae -- I am an engineer after all and crunching numbers is kind of fun for me. But, beggars can't be choosers. Hopefully a book will come out soon with detailed frame information, or at the very least more than nothing. In the end though, the stuff in the Perfect Guide is enough to get by.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Check 1/60 at http://www.dcn.ne.jp/~kazu68k/index.html it has some frame data. Some of the characters are well filled out, some have almost nothing. But, it's all there is at the moment.


cheers,
kbcat

 

hey ... here's some basic frame stuff that might help you understand the game better.

Throw is <font color="red">8</font color> frames, but it stays out for like 4 frames before the throw is officially in recovery. So you can be halfway crouching on the eighth frame, and then fully standing on the twelfth and still get thrown.
8 frame throws are happy because: If a move is counterable at all, it's throwable.
8 frame throws are sad because: Throws are escapeable, and if you try to throw at inappropriate times you will suffer from an attack, so you have to to react fast and be very sure when you try to throw counter after blocking a move. Case in point: Akira does a knee, which is blocked, then buffers in a bodycheck. The opponent is 2 frames (1/30th of a second) slow in trying to throw counter this attack. The bodycheck wipes out 40% of their life.


Punch or low punch is <font color="orange">12</font color> frames.
Some characters have 11 frame punches. Wolf and Jeff have nasty slow 13 frame punches. Vanessa has a retardedly slow 14 frame punch.

High punches are happy because: high punch leaves you at +1 frame when it's blocked (+2 for heavies, akira, and lau, sega's weird like that), which means making them block your high punch is like a tiny victory. I'll explain why in a second. High punches are also cool because a lot of moves in the game are -12 frames or more when blocked, so a 12 frame punch is guaranteed. So that means a PPP or PK combo for most characters will connect... for something like 30-40 pts of damage. Better yet is the old P-throw trick. An opponent who is punch counterable (-12 frames) is also throw counterable (-8) so if they're busy entering throw escapes, the P smacks them and THEN you can throw.

12 frame punches are sad because: P-throw is not guaranteed, and a smart opponent can really make you hurt for trying it. For example if I see you trying P-throw when you block lau's df+P+K, and I fall for it the first time.. the next time I'm going to mash on df+P+K. Then when you try P, throw, my df+P+K smacks you out of the throw attempt and you lose 40% of your life.

Low punches are happy because: If one person tries a high punch and you try a low punch at the same time, guess who wins. Low punch stuffs a lot in situations where high punch misses.

Low punches are sad because: If blocked, you are at -4 frames. What that means is this: If you low punch and then try ANY ATTACK IN THE GAME (except sabakis and reversals), you will lose to quick mid moves like akira's super dashing elbow, or jacky's beat knuckle. Generic mid moves like f+P elbows or sidekicks will also win against people who do d+P repeatedly. So if your opponent blocks a low punch and has fast reflexes (that's the key part, you need to have good reflexes) they will probably do an elbow, knowing that it will win if you tried any other attack, even a quick high or low punch. If you don't want to eat this elbow, you must dodge or guard, don't try to attack.

Elbows are in general <font color="yellow">14</font color> frames.
Only a little slower than a jab, but much less safe if blocked.

Elbows are happy because: Obviously elbows give you the nice reward of a stagger if they interrupt. A common and useful trick is to use elbow throw the same way you'd use P-throw. The elbow doesn't recover as fast as punch, but because it's a more damaging attack, it will stun longer. So an interrupt with an elbow puts you ahead 6-8 frames... in other words almost as much as a fast jab MC.

Elbows are sad because: if blocked you're at a -4 situation again. Your next attack will lose to their elbow or any 16 frame attack they have. So you must guard or dodge, which they can attempt to throw. It's a 50/50 situation.

side note: <font color="white">You might think "what if I crouch dash forward or back, won't that avoid the throw and maybe some attacks?" ... well, surprisingly, no. At -4, a crouch dash forward or back loses to a throw. I had to test this because I'm not sure why. I thought crouch dashes put you at a full crouch instantly but I guess not. They do seem to let you do from crouch ATTACKS instantly though, so that's why it's confusing. Maybe someone else can help me on this one. In any case, a blocked elbow is strictly a 50/50 guessing game where you must guess right to avoid damage: elbow or throw. There's trickery that can make the guessing a little easier though: do dodge and throw escapes, do an attack that sabaki's elbows if you know your opponent is fond of them (i.e. they play akira)... etc. ] </font color>

Knees are generally <font color="green">17</font color> frames, just enough to lose if you try to interrupt two low punches in a row.

In betweener attacks: There are a lot of attacks in between punch and elbow or elbow and knee, and their slight speed difference makes them useful. Jacky's beat knuckle is one of them, at 16 frames it's faster than a knee, but gets knee-like damage almost. Another is lau's b,f+P. It's slower than a punch and faster than an elbow.

Here comes the neatness I was talking about earlier. Let's say you force your opponent to block lau's high punch (at close range only). Your attack was blocked, but because it's a high punch, that's actually a tiny victory. If lau does his quick "in between" attack, a b,f+P... that will smack them out of a high punch, even though it's their fastest attack. And lau's b,f+P lands you a pretty nice chunk of damage. So P -> b,f+P is sort of strong, though a b,f+P will lose to a low punch. But that's where more neatness comes in. Because lau is +2 (where the average guy is +1), and their attack is gonna take 12 frames to come out, that means a 14 frame attack from lau will beat ANYthing they try. Test it on the PS2 by having lau do P,elbow to you. Your low punch or high punch will lose to the elbow every time. So even from just blocking lau's punch, you are now forced to guess: will he elbow, or will he throw? If he elbows and you attack, he wins. If you decide not to attack, and he throws, he wins. It IS possible, in theory only, to crouch dash under the throw attempt... I tested it... but nobody has reflexes to crouch dash out of a blocked-P --> throw.

Also, what I'm saying is true of lau and akira, but not the rest of the characters. This guessing game does NOT work for Jacky for example. After making you block a punch, Jacky's elbow will lose to a high or low punch. It DOES work for wolf, but you have to do P -> HCB+P. HCB+P is sort of wolf's version of an elbow, but with crappier recovery. Still, it's so fast that blocked P -> HCB+P will beat any attack the opponent tries in between.

So anyway, that's the basic frame guessing game. It helps to know where you're at when key moves are blocked. It also helps to know those weird little in between moves that will win in situations where an elbow normally might not, or a knee normally wouldn't.

Finally, (and I know this is probably a lot more than you were asking for, and nothing like what you wanted) it's definitely possible to jerk off too much over frames. The AVERAGE guy cannot beat knuckle in between two rapid fire low punches after the first one is blocked, and players have sworn akira's knee is not throw counterable even though they have an extra 1/60th of a second to screw up. So for practical purposes worry about good offensive tricks like blocked punch -> HCB+P with wolf... and don't worry so much about "shit I just blocked lau's jab at long range, should I throw out something besides low punch?!"

PS: myke wrote a shorter and probably clearer document with similar information here. It's Theory Fighter but it's good to help understand the system.

 

Could you gather your own frame statistics by using the advance by frame feature of replays? Not that you would want to take the time, but wouldn't it be possible?

 

I don't think that would work.
You'd have to do all the assessment optically, which won't be an easy task.

 

*sticks in a bookmark*

well, i could'nt leave this thread without showing any gratitute, so thanks creed, your info was extremely helpful. and also to everyone else who conributed to the thread...

where does this info come from originally anywayz?

 

originally there were japanese magazine and book publishers like gamest, and they used a machine that steps the animation of each attack 1 frame at a time, and they must have literally counted frames. And as for damage, I dunno. Measurement? like, if it takes 10 of these exactly to KO you, damage = 20 pts? Obviously it was a lot of hard work.

So anyway frame stats have been around since VF2, and probably VF1. Then they looked to see which moves were different and got the frame stats on those for VF3, and ditto VF4, and ditto evo... etc.

Once you know a little something about frames, you can test some stuff even without a machine. Like for example let's say you're playing lau vs. lau, and want to know if lau's df+P+K is counterable. You know lau's P is 12 frames, so you try that first. It hits before the other lau recovers. So next you try a 13 frame attack, like b,f+P. That hits too, so the recovery of the move is at least 13 frames. Next you try an elbow, which you know to be 14 frames. It hits too, so the move has at least 14 frames of recovery if blocked. Next you try a 15 frame attack (I dunno any of lau's off the top of my head). That gets blocked. So you now know for sure df+P+K has 14 frames of recovery without ever using a machine or book.

That's how ppl have figured out kage's upper in Evo is -2 (?). At -2, if kage's upper is blocked, and he does a punch and you do an elbow, the elbow wins, but if kage does a crouch dash and you try a throw, kage is successful in crouch dashing under it, so he's not -4. So he's gotta be -2 or -3.

Anyway, glad the info helped.

 

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originally there were japanese magazine and book publishers like gamest, and they used a machine that steps the animation of each attack 1 frame at a time, and they must have literally counted frames. And as for damage, I dunno. Measurement? like, if it takes 10 of these exactly to KO you, damage = 20 pts? Obviously it was a lot of hard work.

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up until vf4, sega supplied the damage and frame stats themselves.

 

I tought they still did.

 

no, you 'tought' wrong. publishers have been relying on the techniques that creed mentioned for vf4.

 

Heh, sucks to be them then.

 

erm.... one small querey about my understanding:

if a throw is 8 frames to exicute, and a high punch is 12 frames, why does the high punch normally win if they are both exicuted simltaneously, does it not? to make sure, i tried this out in training mode and seemed to get hit out of my throw animation (dunno if it was my timing, but it seemed fairly accurate at the time).

even if you are high punch thrown, they only get a one frame advantage correct? but it still loses to a high punch... what's wrong?

 

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You can't be thrown during the execution of an attack but there are some rare exceptions.

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Hmm, interesting. Can you describe some of those rare exceptions? (I'm still learning the system.)

 

catch throws generally can throw you during the execution of an attack. How to tell if it's a catch throw?

1. it's got a weird startup animation
2. it can't be escaped

Those are pretty safe rules of thumb. Examples are kage and wolf's uf+P+G, or akira's f,b+P+G. In some cases this is kinda useful. If wolf does a high punch which MC's your attack, then f+P+G, the f+P+G will always catch them, no matter what. Even if they try to attack out of it.

Now try P -> P+G, and they can attack you during the throw attempt.

Also, some attacks are just throwable no matter what, but there are very very few attacks that work like that. One is the second hit of lion's QCB+P,P. Just grab lion after blocking QCB+P, it doesn't matter if he tries a second P, you'll throw him out of it.