From Ducking > Hell Trap.

1. What does this move do?
2. In what situations is it best implemented?

I seriously have no idea how to incorporate this move. It looks like a low parry Tekken animation. Parry seems impractical however, given the ducking setup. Thanks in advance.

 

Well, it seems obvious, that you would use it when someone is trying to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Now, how to force someone to do that?

You can either use it when you play someone yu know, and you know when he would use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or, you can do some setups.

I use only of two of them. When attacking a techrolling opponent, go into Ducking and instead of attacking, do a throw, if you succed twice, or even once, the opponent might try to duck the next time, or low punch you, that's when you do Ducking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

The second one, and more reliable for me is:

when going into i.e. ducking I use moves that leave me a possibility of going into some other sway, than I use another and another. Next thing to do is YOU guessing when to stop moving, and when the opponent is going to try do LP you. I use it quite often, though it doesn't always work. Depending on how fast you react, and follow with a combo when the move succeeds, the more damaging it can be... Though Shining Wizard is a lot funnier /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Try differrent moves that leave you the possibility of swaying in different directions, and try to continue them endlessly /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Have fun! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

The problem with hell trap as a concept is that (good) opponents reaction towards Brads movements should never be 2p but more the likes of elbows etc. Now if helltrap sabaki'd midpunches and elbows also; that would be a different story altogether.

 

Thats what you keep saying but I guess you havent played against Brad that much.. I can tell he can avoid mids with his slips as well.. So well in fact that I dont even bother with trying to interrupt his slipping with mids anymore.. Im not saying that they cant be interrupted, rather than that slips avoid mids with certain timing.

 

Phasing turn avoids some mids including elbows depending on the situation. After blocked elbow if they retaliate with their own elbow for instance.

 

I decided to revive this thread instead of creating a brand new one when I saw Ducking Hell Trap being talked about here: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/238580#Post238580

I have been using Ducking Hell Trap a lot more lately and I gotta agree with Myke in saying that it's not that bad too. Specially when you're absolutely sure that your opponent is going to react with a low punch to any of Brad's moves that lead into Ducking. The timing on it is tricky but it's nothing that some dojo practice can't fix.

I use to suck at using Hell Trap, I used to think that it was useless too but within the past couple of months I've been using it not only to stop my opponent from 2P'ing me out of moves that lead into stances but also to duck high attacks like standing P.

You do have to have a game plan after a failed Ducking Hell Trap though. If your opponent just stands there and then tries to attack late, you can do 3P and float them. If they're a little bit faster, then 2P and if they're really good then block/evade or ETEG.

But as Myke mentioned, if they're delaying their 2P or P, you should be abusing your options from stances. Brad is still in control in the sense that they're waiting to see what you do out of your stance. Brad has the threat of mid or throw from stance if they freeze. If they want to interrupt they're going to have to attack and if Brad has advantage your attack should beat out your opponent's attack.
This is why so many people P or 2P Brad out of stances, these are the fastest and safest ways to hit Brad out of stances when he's got advantage. That's why Ducking Hell Trap is useful and sometimes essential.

I'll explain further with a little theory fighter here /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Now don't get it twisted, I have tried these tactics against human opponents, more offline than online but the last time I was playing online, around December it was working then too. I was using it against a few people like Dennis0201 and he's all the way in Cali, so just saying that it is doable and more than just theory /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Alright, here's an example of why Ducking Hell Trap is essential (at least until R gets released then we won't have to guess so hard, lol)
Brad does /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ->Ducking
Brad's 14f moves from Ducking will beat out your opponent's mids if Brad attacks without delay.
Frame data says that Brad is at +1 but if you test this yourself you will see that if he goes into Ducking (stance) he's got a little bit more frames to work with, kinda like Lau when he goes into stance from certain moves. I do not know how much advantage he has but I do know that it can taken away by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
That's why every good Brad player needs to learn to use Ducking Hell Trap so that when you need it, you can remind opponents that this isn't Evo Brad.

It's also good as a standalone move to bait evades and even high attacks. You can even use it alone to stop low punches but only when you have at least +1 advantage, like for example:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -> Ducking, Hell Trap and if you're having trouble buffering in an elbow after your standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is guarded and they keep low punching you, just do Ducking, Hell Trap after the standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

 

Really T-Fam? The why was it removed in VF5:R then?
I don't get it. Even when i delay it and the opponent does 2p i still get jerked. I needed this move bad against AdamYuki and it failed me to much. Like i said a sabaki would been better beause you still have to follow the move up anyway. Its always the characters i like that get shitted on. Atleast in R you can jump over the 2p.

 

The thing is, when DOES he enter with advantage? The way i read the command list he has to counterhit his opponent otherwise it's just a handful of moves that give +frames on simple hit, which would mean he can be elbowed out, no?

 

Don't you live close to Adam? I can't image lag to be that much of an issue for you. If you can post a replay showing the above, that would be great. Like I mentioned in the other thread, if the opponent is doing a late low punch, then you should probably abuse the stance more by staying offensive (Ducking P or K perhaps), instead of going defensive (hell trap).</div></div>
Wow you must've really love that Move Myke lol! I get full green bars when i play with Adam but lag is always present in VF5 even its its about 10 Ms.
I prefer brad with a superman puch or superman elbow...Its more Muay thai like.At least this jumping elbow keeps his pressure game going on a little further. Matter fact can't brad duck after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif now in R?

 

Oh snap, that explains a lot. Thanks for clearing that up, Myke, I didn't know that info wasn't published. That explains why /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has different results than
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif when going into stances even though both of them are -8 on block.
I saw what they did with Lau in the VFWiki, how they put up all the frames of him going into stances. How was this done? Can't the same be done for Brad?

Overfiend, I'm not saying that Ducking Hell Trap is awesome or anything but it is essential in the sense that sometimes it's all Brad can do to stop a low punch when going into Ducking. It's either Hell Trap or eat the low punch.
In Evo I was stuck, low punches were like kryptonyte for Brad but now that I got better acquainted with Hell Trap I can make my opponent a bit more mindful of low punching the crap out of me like they used to do in Evo. I still get low punched to death in other scenarios but now if I go into Ducking, let's just say my opponents aren't as low punch happy as they used to be /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Yes, it does suck that Brad has to go into a stance to use it and yes it is not as good as Wolf's or Goh's low punch sabakis but Brad's better off in VF5 than he was in Evo.
Of course, it should go without mention that VF5R Brad's new answer to low punches is 100 times better than what we got now but hey, I worked with Evo Brad so I think I can work with a tricky low punch sabaki from Ducking and the ability to Phase Turn out of the way of attacks from Slip Left/Right.

Don't forget that Brad started out as the lowest of the low in the Evo. Both him and Goh were pretty awful but now it's redemption time. When you look back, the Evo boys have come a long way.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyway Hell Trap is awesome</div></div>
In your opinion XD!!!

But a counter is better than no counter.

 

I liked that move too. I hated how the move kept getting nerfed though. In FT you could opt for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif instead of the Sawk Klab follow up, but that was eventually taken out. In VF5 Version A (I think) they toned down the damage of the uppercut (I forget which version it was when it was changed from an elbow to an uppercut) from 28 to 20 damage (Significant!). To see it improved so dramatically in VF5R was great. It nicely complimented his improved ability to counter hit opponents who try to interrupt his stances with elbows. Anyway, I made the following statement in another thread:

Is this the limited use of the move that you were talking about Myke? Looking at what I posted above, I think that I made the mistake of making this look like a sound strategy, but it's only a parlor trick at best. =P The reason for why I believe in using the Hell Trap in the above manner is because from my experience, it isn't hard to delay /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and in some cases interrupt with elbows. You said:

I've seen delayed low punches interrupt Brad's attacking options from Ducking as well though. I really don't believe that you need to delay the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif that much to avoid the Hell Trap and stuff his attacks. The window to catch the low punch seems pretty small to me. Knowing the frames for when the sabaki/inashi whatever becomes active along with how long would be nice. Another great thing about VF5R Brad's jumping elbow is that it will beat out low punches even if they are delayed.

 

That's my bad then. I was just going off of my opponent's reactions to these moves. I can't seem to sneak in a Slip Body Break from Stepping Knee -> Front Kick but I'm successful most of the time trying it from Stop Kick. It must just be my opponent has more time to think and react to the latter.

 

Tony - that would make more sense. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has two hits for the opponent to process before needing to figure out how they are going to react to your next move, whereas /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif leaves them just the one.

This is an interesting point though - it makes a lot of intuitive sense that there's greater pressure on your opponent when they need to react right after getting hit once, rather than twice. Thanks for bringing that up.

Good thread. I must admit that I rarely if ever use helltrap, and typically just look for other ways to punish people abusing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (like DM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif). I definitely agree that it feels like a skill move and is something that won't be acquired over night.