Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack

Consider the following at -5 :

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif ~ release /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif, hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for a few frames ~ attack or throw

If the opponent tried an immediate mid, you will guard it, and your attack / throw will not come out, because you are still in blockstun. You don't even have to G-cancel, because chances are pretty good it's not in the input buffer.

If the opponent tried an immediate throw, it will whiff, and your attack / 0 frame throw will come out.

There's no reaction or distinguishing between opponent's responses involved here; you can use the same timing for both cases, and as long as you use something reasonably fast as an attack, they wont have time to guard after throw whiffs.

If you use something that's strong against clash, it works well against delay throw also. Will lose to low throw and delayed attack, but that opens up opportunities to simply abare.

I had always assumed this would work, but had never bothered to test it; after confirming it with programmed inputs, i tried it out by hand, and its not that hard to do, especially with fast moves like pai /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Knee-speed attacks are a little trickier, but definitely doable.

I don't recall this being discussed before, is that just because it's obvious? Most people around here seem to talk about fuzzy in terms of just tapping down and then holding guard forever until the opponent does something.

Edit: Here's a video of what I'm talking about -
http://blip.tv/file/845595
AI is set to mid-or-throw, jeff is doing the exact same set of inputs every time. Note that he cannot simply knee here, as it will clash.

 

oftentimes, i find myself doing this during a match. but it only instinctively comes out when i see that the opponent doesn't do anything after i fuzzy. i even do this at -6...

 

Yeah, i would do that too like after jeff's elbow was blocked, cd forward and guard for a bit, and if they werent doing anything, throw.

But my point here is that you can do it mechanically, as an option select, without regard to looking at whether the opponent is doing anything, because if you guard then your counterattack wont come out.

 

I will admit I never mapped it all out in those terms... but after thinking about it a while, isn't that just the definition of fuzzy? You guard against immediate mid or throw. What happens after that is sort of a seperate guessing game... yes, a followup attack will beat a delay throw, but you'll still get counterhit by a delay attack with less delay than however many frames you took to fuzzy.

The reason delay throw tends to be mentioned a lot, and is very potent, is that if you pull off a completely mechanical fuzzy, there's enough time to see whether you're opponent used a mid or throw, or did nothing. And if they did nothing, people tend to expect a delay attack, and keep guarding, opening themselves up to throw again.

Also, can't get your opponent get a 0-frame if they manage to input throw right after you stand up, but before you release guard? Maybe it's not possible... not sure how the math on that works?

 

Sort of, but not really. I'm talking about a purely mechanical option select, same timing regardless of what opponent does. You might as well say ETEG is a separate guessing game after the initial evade and before the throw escapes; in practice, it's just one single guess.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, can't get your opponent get a 0-frame if they manage to input throw right after you stand up, but before you release guard?</div></div>

With what i'm talking about, i'm fairly certain the only window for delay throw is to time a 0-frame to hit them right before they crouch (which is a hell of a lot harder to do than the option select i'm talking about), because after they're done crouching, they don't necessarily have any fully standing frames (especially from a crouchdash). Even if they do have fully standing frames, there aren't very many of them at all.

 

Yeah, this technique has been known for a while. It's probably at it's best combined with a jab (especially if you have a LW jab), since then you'll beat out A LOT of delayed actions from your opponents

 

It will whiff just becase of fuzzy guarding, right?

 

I understand what you're saying. It's just that your option select seems designed to guard against delay throw, and delay throw only. I could just as well say that I fuzzy guard and then always immediately standing guard because it's an option select that keeps me safe from high delay attacks 100% of the time. It's certainly not a bad idea to do what you're describing, it's just not as powerful as you seem to think. Fuzzy guard will completely block standard nitaku options, which tends to mean you're guarding against the "majority" of possible attacks that you could predict. Adding this immediate abare attack on the end, is guarding against some options, sure... but less than the majority.

With an ETEG, you tend to be trying to input all the throw escapes as a single motion, if you can do the entire ETEG in like 12 frames or less, that's success, there's no way in hell you're "hit checking" the evade before you decide whether to input the throw escapes or not (it's probably possible to input the throw escapes late enough to hit check, and still successfully escape... I won't debate that, it's just unnecessary, why would anyone bother trying, when the throw escapes are essentially "free", you have enough time to input them whether your opponent decided to throw or not).

 

no. It guarantees that if they throw immediately, they will be punished for it, no chance to guard, no reaction time involved.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you can do the entire ETEG in like 12 frames or less. . . .the throw escapes are essentially "free", you have enough time to input them whether your opponent decided to throw or not). </div></div>

Exactly, the entire fuzzy guard ~ attack motion takes about 12 frames, and the attack is essentially "free"; you have enough time to input it whether your opponent decided to throw or attack.

 

It guarantees punishing the whiffed throw, huh?... well, duh, they're stuck in a throw whiff animation, I have more than enough time to hit check that their arms are flailing around uselessly, and then 0-frame if I want... this doesn't need to be mechanical to allow you to punish.

The problem, is, following you succesfully fuzzying, either you actually ducked a throw or whiffed a mid... in which case, grats you won, you have the advantage, plus either some frames of blockstun, or the throw whiff animation to assess the situation, and respond accordingly, so the followups don't need to be automatic, this is all just side effects of the initial fuzzy guard.

However, if your opponent did nothing, then you're back at neutral. If you're at neutral, then attack beats throw, throw beats guard, and guard beats attack. However, there's no especially good reason to choose one of those three, except yomi. Whatever you do, it should be automatic, because you're right that there's really no time to hit check... but I'm going to choose what to do after I fuzzy based on my knowledge of my opponent, not just attack after every single fuzzy.

 

You don't seem to get it. If the opponent does an immediate attack, you'll simply block it and the attack won't come out.

Let me put it this way

You do fuzzy and a jab in the way KoD described

Opponent does immediate attack ----> You block it
Opponent does a string of attacks ----> You'll block them
Opponent does immediate throw ----> You automatically punish it
Opponent does delayed throw ----> You'll attack him out of it
Opponent does delayed attack ----> You'll probably attack him out of it.

 

Akai: Oops, that sounds really wrong... What I meant was either you (duck throw/block mid) OR you (are at neutral)... the "either" was referring to the two seperate paragraphs. (Also, "whiffed" should say "blocked"... that's just a typo)

Jeneric: That's not what it sounds like to me... I've got:

Opponent does immediate attack ----> You block it (only if it actually was a 14-frame mid... jeffry can just knee or something and counterhit your jab)
Opponent does a string of attacks ----> You'll block them (no, you'll probably block the first attack... but then you've released guard, you might be able to block them all if you have good reactions)
Opponent does immediate throw ----> You automatically punish it
Opponent does delayed throw ----> You'll attack him out of it (or clash, depending on how much he delayed)
Opponent does delayed attack ----> You WILL get counter hit, unless your opponent delayed much longer than actually necessary.

I'm not trying to say it's a horrible idea or anything... I do it myself at times, and it's effective, especially against throws. HOWEVER, the risk/reward isn't good enough to make it some overwhelmingly beneficial technique that I want to constantly use.

 

In my experience, you'll block slower attacks as well, jab won't come out.

You don't have to hold guard to guard natural combo strings (it's funny you didn't know this), you just need to guard the first attack, then you can release the guard button and still block the attacks. For strings where the 2nd hit is NOT a natural combo I can't see a problem with guarding on reaction.

 

Are you sure? I'm sure I've seen standing PPP combos where the first hit was blocked, but later hits landed. (In fact, I think I was the person hit, trying to input 2P too early, to counter hit someone doing PPP2K, and instead the last punch hit me.) Is it like an evade... you're safe if you do nothing, but if you try to input a move, you lose the effect?

As for the rest... yeah, "in practice", timing variations are subtle enough that there's probably gonna be some randomness to who wins. But, I don't see any particular reason a delayed jab would consistently lose to fuzzy into jab (which is basically just a form of delay).

 

Jeneric, i played around with this some, and lightweight jabs can definitely clash against delayed throw attempts, even though a lightweight jab @ -5 wont. I used to think that if both players were delaying it would be enough to effectively reset the situation with regard to clash, but I'm pretty sure thats wrong.

Sorias, I'm not going to say you can guard all successive hits of a natural combo after guarding the first one and letting go of guard (probably just the second one). But I am absolutely certain that you can guard the first hit of e.g. laus PP string, let go of the guard button, and you will still guard the second hit (assuming it wasn't delayed). It makes it kind of obnoxious to try and test CH properties of only the second punch. That's why stuff like PP~8K+G works against lowpunchers; they cant lowpunch out of the second P. Go try it in dojo.

If you think what I'm talking about isnt that "powerful", or don't see the benefit of blocking a mid while automatically punishing a throw attempt with a guaranteed high damage attack ( as opposed to an escapable 0-frame on reaction ) fine, don't do it. I'm not advocating that you "should" do anything, only that you "can".

 

Updated with link to vid per request on irc

http://blip.tv/file/845595

 

This is a very good tid bit of information that is burried in the forums. I would not have come across this if I wasn't looking at how to play jeff in his strat section in wiki.

 

Yeah this is nice and the first time I have seen it.

I know we have a wiki but it would be nice to have a consolidated list of threads or links to parts of the wiki within the forum regarding this type of training and information. The wiki is great don't get me wrong, I just feel a sticky of some sort pointing to some major topics would be really cool.

Searching is great and I know its advocated quite a bit here, search before asking, classic response. But its more enlightening to see something that I may have never even thought to search for. This thread is a perfect example. I know Fuzzy guarding is talked about quite a bit and there is in fact some info found on the wiki. But this is a nice thread talking about how to train in dojo to master Fuzzy. Its extremely informative and if it wasn't for Tricky I would probably not had seen it. In his case if it wasn't for the jeff thread.

Just my opinion.

 

I was talking to sanjuro and a couple other people at socal about using this to beat lowthrow as well, figured I'd post a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJykGmAqjgo