Game design decision behind the 2P mechanic.

I'm a relatively low-level player. Before VF5FS, I've never had any live-person comp (except 1 roommate who played vs me in VF4evo).

Anyways, I have a beef with 2P. Now I know it's in the game for a reason, probably as an universal attack string disruptor so that ppl have more options against string mashers. But at low levels of play, it feels overpowered for such a stupid-looking move.

Yes, I know that once you know how to play the game, you can defeat 2P mashers. But that doesn't change the fact that the move looks dumb, both in the "realistic fighting" sense and in the "cool flashy" sense. I would much prefer an universal "push-block" mechanic like in MvC. At the very least, the 2P should do miniscule tick damage even on hit; right now it does as much damage as a regular punch, and VF lifebars are in reality pretty short as it is.

2P mashers winning in low-level play makes the entire game look stupid to new players. They would say "this game is CRAP, you win by doing that stupid duck punch all day." Ofc it's not true past newbies, but the first impression is worse than games with mashing.

Anyone want to elucidate on the current 2P as a game design decision?

 

The best thing to do is to have them start doing it back, then destroy them for it, that will teach them that it's not just about 2P.

 

Wow, thanks for showing me that other thread Myke! It really elaborates on my initial thoughts.

***Goes off to read.***

 

It does look really goofy; I'll give you that. That said, I don't think I'd care one way or the other if they took it out for, say, Virtua Fighter 6.

 

Every iteration of VF gives characters more move specifically designed to beat low punch. Final Showdown has more than ever. However, finding the right one takes a bit of time and can be a bit risky.

Go into dojo mode and set the CPU to "guard and counterattack with . Then experiment to see what goes around it. If you really call out someone's 2p attempt, the damage potential can be massive. For example, wolf's low punch cut (reversal) now does 80 - 120pts of damage. Do that a few times and your opponent will stop using low punch or you'll get a few easy wins before they get frustrated and quit.

Having said that, no one likes 2p. Its just part of the game.

 

Here's a question, then. If VF made its newbie-friendly 2P into Tekken's useless 2P, what would that do to the game?

Would it make the game unplayable? Would it lose something? Would there be no answers to certain characters?

Remember, this is the game that took away evade-attacks and mTE, because either the high-level players say they're useless, or because it's "too complicated" (I guess). Why remove evade-attacks and mTE, but keep the 2P???

 

2P could have some more total frames making it easier to react to when its blocked..

ps. Jump attacks seem to be much better at beating low punches in FS, try those maybe. Like basic or whichever one is good for your character.

I think my friend tested that they beat low punch up to -6.

 

You will soon realize 2p is only that much more powerful online. Its not stupid looking move compared to Vanilla 5 animation that whiffs on certain collision boxes. The higher up you go in skill you will realize its usefulness in moderation.

 

A couple of months back I started work on a small article on 2p and why it was such an important move for the game, because I figured new players would be asking questions (read: raging) about the move.

In the article, I wanted to clearly outline what made 2p such an important move for VF, through giving some definitions of what the move actually is. Maybe these will give you some more insight, though it's very bare-bones like this.

What does this mean? It means it is the single most important attack in the game and it is basically what makes VF work. Effectively, it means that in every situation in the game, whether or not you can use a move without being interrupted by an opponent's attack, you have to either:

- use a move that can specifically beat 2p, either by lowcrushing, or by having lowpunch sabaki frames

Or, and this is why it's important:

- have a certain amount of frame advantage that would allow you to beat 2p with another move

I had some more written down, but it's unfinished. I guess the point I was gonna make (through many examples etc.) in the end would be that you generally want to make sure that whenever you want to use a move to actually hit the opponent and beat their attacks, you have to use a move that will beat 2p. You will find out which moves do this at which advantage by checking the framedata (12+x=move's execution, x=frame advantage you need to beat 2p, and therefore other moves).

I hope this is useful in understanding why 2p is there and why it's important. Whether or not you like the designdecision is up to you.

 

If you can't punish your opponents properly, it's not their fault by doing 2P.

 

This... 2p is not the end all be all, But it can be annoying if you do not know how to space it properly or deal with it accordingly.

 

@ Krye:
I like that analysis... So you're saying 2P exists in order to... limit newbies from just mashing PPPK strings at each other? Because after their newbie string getting repeatedly interrupted by a stupid-looking jab, they'll finally start thinking "Okay wtf do I do, to play with getting around that in mind?"
That's an understandable game design decision... but then I just wish it looked better.

@ People who say L2P:
I'm discussing it in terms of game design. Also it's hilarious watching some online replays where 2 ppl are fighting with a variety of combos and dashing around, then suddenly 1 of them starts mashing 2P, and the next thing you know 2 competent players are sitting on their asses in the middle of the ring, mashing 2P at each other. Maybe they had to fight that way due to lag, I dunno.

 

I'll add to this. 2P is definitely good. However, it's also short range. Most people haven't learnt spacing techniques yet, so that's why they're losing to 2P. If you're out of reach, 2P won't do much to you.

Backdash in this game is pretty awesome, so if someone's mashing 2P, you can take a step back and kick him in the head.

I'm not very fond of 2P. However, it teaches people a bit about spacing, and also a LOT about hit confirming and frame advantage. If it hits yay, but if your 2P is blocked, you're actually at disadvantage, so continue spamming it at your own peril.

I'm however a VERY big fan of standing jab. If you mess up your spacing and I touch you with standing jab, whether it hits or is blocked, I win.

 

2p is there to keep people honest. It's what makes sure people can't spam their 17 frame launchers when they're at +4. It is what makes you have to 'build your advantage'. In the end, to me, it's the thing that allows vf to be vf

 

If they devolved into 2P spam and neither player had a strategy against it then they weren't really competent players to begin with. Doing combo's isn't the mark of a good player, having the required answers for all situations is.

 

As I've played VF longer, I've just learned to get used to it and expect to see it in every fight. I still hate it, and I still use it when I have to, but now I think I understand it more after all of this time. It actually makes you feel like a better player once you learn to deal with an opponent that constantly uses it AND once you teach yourself to rely on it less.

Totally made me think of some of the stuff I saw at the Final Round XV exhibition, a Southtown Arcade tournament and ECT this weekend. Really makes the game look as stupid as everyone calls it. You'd think after five years of playing VF5 we could make the game look less retarded on stream.

 

Just go to Dojo and have the cpu set to 2P are an atk and find out which Mid atk beats it or learn the timing needed to evade, i've found alot of ways to beat it with Eileen.

The real challenge comes with learning your opponents 2P habits and using that to your advantage so that he doesnt go to that move too often if he knows your gonna counter it.

You'll learn to deal with it over time.

 

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Totally made me think of some of the stuff I saw at the Final Round XV exhibition, a Southtown Arcade tournament and ECT this weekend. Really makes the game look as stupid as everyone calls it. You'd think after five years of playing VF5 we could make the game look less retarded on stream. </div></div>

your last strategy is legit as I too learn that after the first to P,P delay it since most characters can 2P before the 3rd but instead hit them with w MID or P,P again as the first hit is usually +2,3 depending on your character....Glad someone else has been using this tactic ^_^ good shit man

 

2p is a solid move that is part of fundamental VF play. The best way to beat it is to elbow if they are throwing from a disadvantage to interrupt your counter attack. Using it to start your offense isn't that strong, its strongest use is stealing advantage back after you've attacked; as long as they use a high attack, you'll be back at +5.

As good as 2p can be in the right situation, I think standing jab is better. It leaves you at +2 even on block and is a great way to apply pressure, get a counter hit or land a throw. You can jab and jab again knowing you'll beat out any attack they throw. 2p is necessary to counter blocked-jab, jab.