Gameplay quick thoughts

Re: My analysis

blah blah blah.

it's faster, jeff.

accept it, already

 

Re: I forgot...

Does anyone have these clips in QT or MPEG, avi is just too Mac unfriendly???

- The VF Student -

 

Re: My analysis

Green Penis Waggling Situations. Heh. Seriously though it seems optional since it was only in the first fight. Seems a little distracting. Is anyone gonna waggle the stick as the icon flashes for a split second? I'd rather use the time to set up my next attack.

I'm pretty disappointed in Lee-Fei. None of his moves seem to be really from Shaolin/Wushu, a shame considering that Sega has captured other styles pretty well. Looks really stiff. But at this time I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they haven't finished implemented him yet and/or the guy was using him for the first time.

One thing that really jumped out at me was at the beginning of the first vid when Lau did a rising sweep and Lee-Fei blocked it, but the kick went through him like VF2 instead of stopping the animation, like VF3. Seems a bit of a step backwards there. Also the hit sparks, they are a bit distracting, but I'm just glad they're not like Tekken.

 

Re: My analysis

Should we be using framerate to compare the overall gamespeed? Or input speed even?

VF2 and VF3 are both 60 frames per second, does that make them the same speed? If I hold Guard for 10 seconds in VF2, shouldn't that be 600 frames as well?

Arcade feels slower to me, I ended up liking that. However, another thing comes to mind as well....

Rich mentioned to me in NY that the DC version is sort of squeezed in a bit, horizontally. The proportion of the characters would be distorted making them taller and "skinnier" so to speak. Instead of cropping the camera-view, it was probably just squeezed (since the arcade uses a wider screen).

If that is so, then would that make things look and feel faster where it counts? Things might create an illusion of speed on the horizontal axis?

Well, who knows... Does it matter? Well, it seemed to make a difference to me. Distance judging would be affected for sure.

Goes along with the stages being the same size as the arcade but looking bigger (I might have this wrong, but I think I've heard this before).

The speed difference we might be talking about is perceived distance over a standard time as opposed to in-game clock speed. Things being condensed horizontally might make movements along that line look smaller. Again... who knows? But in the end, I can feel some sort of effect by it (I felt I had an easier time perceiving animations such as incoming attacks in the arcade). And I know I'm not the only one.

Oh well... if you feel the difference, you probably will have a preference... If you don't feel the difference, then it's probably in your best interest anyhow.

-Chanchai

 

hmm I was really curious about the wiggly stick thingy... was it just me... or did people noticed also that the wiggle stick allowed some energy back...??? to me... it seemed like if u wiggled fast enough u'd gain back a bit of energy....

i dunno... i've only seen the first vid...

 

You're referring to the small flash on the lifebar right? What comes to mind for me is that the game is just reminding you how much damage was dealt by quickly flashing the part of the lifebar that went down.

We've only seen one person use Lei-Fei, I imagine we wouldn't see decent use out of Shun from a real newbie, so I'll wait on the Lei-Fei comments. Well, except that his sweeps remind me a bit of Tokio from FV.

Also, it looks like a quick recovery is completely vulnerable. Seems that as the Lei-Fei player did, sweeps would be a more secure option against quick rolls. Fast sweeps anyways.

Wiggling stick doesn't bother me all that much. At least VO Force won't have a big wiggling stick on the screen/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif.

I'm glad the counter-hit flashes are subtle. I was expecting a fireworks display (like Soul Calibur almost). In general, I sort of prefer these few indicators as opposed to all the text in DoA2 (though those texts are excellent indicators of what went on). Much quicker to see and much quicker to forget.

-Chanchai

 

Re: I forgot...

get the divx codec and player from http://mac.divx.st (you'll need mac windows media player). plays just fine, very stable.

 

Re: My analysis

Hmmm....I hate to say this..but I think we basically are looking at the game as how it will appear..any changes at this point I think are going to be asthetic. The character attacks, such as the monks, maybe be animated a bit more, but I really doubt at this point any drastic changes will be put in...I think part of what we fear -- this game becomming more and more can combo dependent is happening.....

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

Re: My analysis

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I think part of what we fear -- this game becomming more and more can combo dependent is happening.....

<hr></blockquote>


To be honest, I am really NOT seeing this happening. Again, we only saw a fraction of the move list of Lei Fei and I figure most of the "canned-combo" reliance you are referring to is just about him.

-Chanchai

 

i think: the rings are too damn small. make them bigger, and get rid of the walls. ditch the hit glow and struggle icon, too. and work on that quick rise. that looks and smells like bullshit.

(i dig the sig - but what's with the "Minestrone Jacky"?)

 

thread vieweres: replies to several

RE: Mr. Bungle, arcade versus DC speed
Heh heh, OK, I'll give it a rest.

RE: AGPC
Hahahahahaha!!! I like that!

RE: ROB_UNR
I think that's a great observation. I was wondering why the life bar becomes depleted like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if struggling will actually allow you to gain some of it back, Vampire Hunter style.

RE: Shadowdean
What? More combo-based? VF4 looks like VF3 with less dodging!

RE: Lau's f,d+K
Neogamer noted in his VF4 impressions thread that a lot of the block animations were missing from certain VF3 moves. His assumption was that they just hadn't been put in yet, and I share the same suspicion unless there is a new way of countering that pesky OB-type f,d+K.

RE: 600 frames
Hmm, that would be an interesting test, but even if the arcade yields 600 frames that doesn't mean they both move at the same speed...or does it.

RE: Quick Rise
As long as the QR is presented as a guessing game, I think it would be a great addition. It's something I've always wished for. Imagine: Jacky ESKs an opponent, opponent falls. Jacky thinks: go for the small pounce if he doesn't QR, go for the big pounce if he just lies there; dash in and attack if the he QRs to his feet; or dash in and attempt the uramawari if he QRs and rolls to the side? These are split second decisions to make and I'm sure the game will move much, much faster with the QRs.

RE: Damage
I agree with Rich in that the life bars were probably shortened to faciliate testing, but I'm also a bit concerned since some moves seemed to take VF3-like damage whereas others took insane amounts.

ice-9, proud member of the AGPC and CVFC

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/24/01 03:28 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Re: I forgot...

I dunno abt the game speed Rich.
I play NTSC exclusivly for fighting and driving games.
Never touch pal for these two genres~

Plus...I dislike Pal.

But from observation, the Arcade seems to be the slower one.

<font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN~~~'

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

A few things I noticed.

Graphics: They look really nice, but it seems this is what AM2 has been working on more than anything, as the old characters seem almost exactly the same (animation wise, maybe a LITTLE smoother) and the one new character looks like shit. One thing I noticed is that it seemed like the tail of lau's shirt should move more freely. Jacky looks like Billy Idol. Did anyone else notice how the tiles were smashed where jacky put aoi down? In vf3, the flags on Lau's stage all move independently of each other; the flags on the castle seem to be mixed: the 2 in the background move together, while the 2 in the foreground seem to be moving separately. Overall, really beautiful, but i'm concerned about the play at this point.

Play: Like rich said, the rings look REALLY small. I was expecting a VF2/Akira VF3 size ring, but these appear smaller. At first I thought it was the same as VF3 Lau's stage across-ways, but I've since looked at Lau's stage and even that seems bigger. In most fights the oppt's pushed into the wall. which would seem to restrict movement (i.e. if you need to escape to the oppt's back but can't because that side of you is slammed into the wall). In both rounds of Pai vs Lau, he pushed pai in the exact same path (straight until the wall, then to his left); you can see from the snow. I feel this rarely happens in 3. At his point in time, it feels claustrophobic to me; even the camera angle seems to be from close to the ground, instead of pulled back a little and higher up, showing the ring more ala 3. No wonder there are walls, because with this ring size, ROs would be totally rampant.

I'm not wanting the game to be 3, but i'm not wanting it to be VF3 on smaller VF2 rings either, which is how these videos seem. It's like VF3 in a small cage. The upside is that it forces infighting, the downside is I feel I can't spread out and use/think about the stage. I hope this game doesn't become a set of absolutes in sratight lines like 2. I find that really boring.

I also agree with Myke that the VF3 stages are a cool thing. Who says no one likes them? I know some people prefer flat stages, but to say that is like saying no one likes Taka, to me. The thing I enjoy about them is how they keep the player from relying on constants too much. I.E. missing an elbow or high rising attack on a slope. Those are moves which are totally overused/abused anyway, right? Why not enjoy that in those situations you have to use fresh tactics? Or that you can turn the table yourself and sneak by. Like the man said, it separates VF from EVERY other fighting game ever (the only other I know is Destrega). And think about all the combos that can only be done up or down slope. If your character has say 10 combos that only apply at those times, and you only have flat stages, you're just loosing part of the game. Personally, I'd rather have more gameplay than less. It seems people only think of them as a disadvantage, but i love it, even if I'm not a good enough player to always use them to their full potential.

I noticed sometimes the shaking stick is red. Does this mean anything, or just showng that the other stick should shake? I don't mind it, myself. I think it's good for beginners, and I'm sure it must deactivate with wins or struggling on the players part, and be written to the card when you don't need it. I know people who have played the game a lot and didn't know you could struggle, or that you could in certain situations.

It looks like there is SOME kind of energy recovery watching the life bar, but I'm not sure.

I noticed that when Lau tried to Oki Pai with a jumping knife hand, that he didn't track her. Could it be because of quick recovery, or too fast on his part? I don't have the video in front of me, but it just stuck out as looking strange to me, like I hadn't seen that happen in 3. Maybe Oki's not so easy now?

The flashes seem subtle enough... and only seem to happen at certain times.

Overall, I'm impressed with the quality (aside from the monk), but now newly apprehensive about the play, mainly the stages and their effect.

Spotlite

 

Re: My analysis

who the hell started this 'lei fei is super-dependent on canned combos' bullshit? he does two or three of them, that's it. that doesn't make him dependent on them.
assumptions at this early stage (after only seeing one short clip of the guy) seem a little foolish to me. it's like if we had never seen jacky before and then when we see a short clip of him doing p,p,f+p,k and then p,p,f+k, and everyone going 'my god, that guy will never survive with just canned combos!'

crazy!

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

VFAVI One
I don't think Lei-Fei is that BAD! His height attack level transitions are quite smooth and fast. Somewhat Jacky-ish. The glows are quite subtle except for the K.O. move when the character glows red. At least they don't have those crazy sparks coming out of your leg or some other. The continue screen is dark and dull... yah. And when the challenger comes in, there were many views of Shun's stage and some polygons disappeared, like the Underwater World-esque tunnel etc. The character select screen is quite cool. And Sarah's 2nd costume is in the same pink-red tones as Pai's 2nd costume... perhaps a more interesting palette is needed.

VF4AVI Two!

Tiles cracking. Reminds me of that CG shot of Akira doing a Pull In Push Out (d/b,f+P+G) on Wolf in the VF2 era portrait series. Great addition. (I'm one for these sort of things, I feel they add more oomph to a game.) But was that Aoi's VF3 2nd costume? That gives us 3 Aoi costumes. We've seen her in that red bloomers one (the one that makes her hips stand out) in the official shots, whereas Fighters Net showed a shot of her in VF3 Costume 1. Now with a 3rd costume... maybe I saw wrongly. Then again, it could have been my dream Aoi costume - purple version of her VF3 Cos 1 top and dark navy bloomers. Does seem like it. Jacky's 2nd costume, the racing suit, looks good. Only I can't understand what that bandage-thingy is doing on his right arm. I don't follow any racing stuff so will someone pls enlighten me on what it is. The way they start a fight focuses on the stages and not characters (no pre-fight sequence). This could have been a good thing. In games like SC and DOA2, all the characters speak in Japanese, yah? I was kind of worried that they would convert all the characters voices into Japanese so that they could converse...(just like who I was worried over Taka's disappearance and it came true...). The fighting poses look a bit different... and Jacky looks a tad skinny... and Akira looks really fat with that non-flattering white gi. Sigh. Pai looks great in that pink ensemble, and you can notice her changed face (she looked really ugly previously, yah?). This costume, though shown before, has some changes. If you remember, the back part stretching down to the legs has been shortened and slit to allow for better graphical showoffish whatever. It still looks good. And that stage that Pai and Shun fight on seems like that of some fish farm but with HK/Holland/Venice/no one cares anyway as the background. The night scene is wonderful and the reflection in the water is great, but it's too dark to see any water effect... The movement in the Pai vs Shun match is smooth but (OK, I'm paying more attention to backgrounds and stuff like that since I have an eye for this [I hear sniggers] and all the gameplay stuff has been repeated like goodness knows how many times), but yes, it does seem VF3. And those platform shoes, Pai? They do make her look taller esp. in the Lau vs Pai match but we'll come to that later. Victory poses are so dramatized that they make me drool. They seem to be new ones and from the AOU video (their silly pre-fight antics that actually fooled silly me into thinking there would be pre match vids... glad Sega isn't following the crowd in one aspect), and gone are the days of disgusting VF3 victories where the camera zoom sucks or the pose is blocked by i)The YOU WIN or YOU LOSE or... you get it. ii)Hands, back towards screen... that's a direct hint, Aoi! Lau! The character select screen is smooth and yes, the sky passing behind the characters resembles SC's screen! But all is forgiven considering that this concept first appeared in VF1 (recall the sky passing behind the drawn characters!?)... and I like how a character is highlighted and his or her name appears first before the surname (last name). The full body and close up concept is pretty cool, much better implemented than Last Bronx (by the way, a number of stages in LB look like that in VF4... e.g. Joe's rooftop stage is 70% like the dark city stage). And changing to the alt. costume is smooth, the characters dissolve [as in the Power Point effect] into their alt. costumes. But the fire and water droplet by the characters is a no-no. Circle and glows around the character select I accept, but none of these! And the chaarcters lighting up from their pastel forms to brightly coloured ones when they are selected is only passable, and placing their names on the top-right hand corner of their resident box spoils the look. Hope they get rid of it. The match between Pai and Lau... you see the stage bypass again... then the match. It is paced very quickly, and there are some changes in the stage. The castle is lighted up for one, but yes, the stage is TOO SMALL! The flags move in sync! No DOA2 physics inaccuracy please! Damage seems VF2ish... I like that. The pace of the game is very fast, and I see that when you are knocked down (as in the case of Pai) you don't lie flat on the ground. Throws are super drama mama now... cool. Physics in gameplay need to be improved... soon.

Okay, end of tirade. Got that off my chest. Doesn't matter if you don't understand anything.

Vicks Biru


<font color=orange>Imagine losing to this bozo...</font color=orange>

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

I'll add some of my impressions to the pile;

I agree with Bryan that the new character looks like shit at this point - of course, keeping in mind the relatively lousy quality of the video (despite the good framerate), and the current stage of development - he seemed very stiff to me, as opposed to smoothly flowing as I had expected his movements to be. Also uninspired - although I could see one stance change; I maintain that it's still too early to form any solid opinions about him.

Overall, I was somewhat relieved by the gameplay - it definitely seemed very familiar, especially watching Lau play - it seemed a cross between VF2 and VF3 Lau to me; more emphasis on rush UpKnf and m-UpKnf related floats (maybe because of the new crouch dash) than on 3, but still lots of elbow games - from the vids, the linear gameplay definitely gave the impression that a rushing Lau might be just as scary as a VF2 Lau;

Given the execution time of the dodge, I definitely agree with Jeff's point about the low P being an increased nuisance; then again, that Pai player didn't seem anything to write home about.

Clothing models, particle effects, etc, all seem exceedingly impressive - I'm a sucker for realtime stuff. However, this was to be expected, so though no surprise, it was a welcome reassurance.

I didn't have a problem with ring sizes - though I'll agree they're smaller than what I had expected; if there's a tendency towards VF2-style rushes, then it could definitely get claustrophobic, but I'll just hold judgement for when I get a chance to actually play;

I enjoyed the terrain variation in 3 for its technical excellence, and the variation of strategy it allowed, but one has got to see both sides of the coin - some characters definitely benefit from elevation, while others are clearly hindered by it - on a fundamental level, everyone is affected to some extent, and I don't think I'd say elevation hurts the balance of the game per se, but it calls for "competitive matchups".

Jacky definitely has a Billy Idol act going on the selection screen;

The stick icon didn't seem too much of a hassle (it appeared pretty subtle to me); and I'm with most people in that I think it's probably customizable in some way. I think it'll be very welcome by beginners that just aren't familiar with the concepts of staggers and struggling, as it's implemented in VF. Even intermediate-level players could probably benefit from it in some way. Some people couldn't care less, but from what I've seen, it's one of the hardest things for people to catch up on - whenever I introduce the game to someone it takes them the longest time to understand it, much the less actually use it.

The "glow" thing for counters also seemed pretty subtle - for situations when, for some reason, someone can't anticipate the MC - or even hear it when it does come out, that could bee a nice "aide", without being too obtrusive - again, the vid quality wasn't too great, so let's wait to see how obtrusive it'll be. I understand the jaded side of the coin - those who've learned to look for staggers and react quickly enough have done so through much practice, and without any external (pictorial) help - but I see both these implementations as the main tools for conforming to the intention of making each VF more accessible, without alienating the more seasoned players. It's a delicate thing, but I think it's being well implemented so far - instead of changing the system itself (i.e. removing staggers or what not), make more parts of the system visible to the untrained eye;

I hope we can see some throw escapes soon - the throwing system (or change therein) is being my main source of concern for VF4; as Jeff pointed out, I could notice the execution time in Pai's throw against Shun - that doesn't bother me; however, I'm worried about the throw escape system. How to make that part of the system more transparent without sacrificing something really important?

Bryan, about Lau's failed Oki, it happens in both rounds - for the first I thought he was too far, and that a small dash forward as Pai was rolling would have fixed it, but looking at the second I'm not too sure; it could very well be a (non) tracking issue...

 

ah yes - minestrone jacky...I was just joshin' with Shadowdean (haha) when he commented on Jacky being 'souped' up in a different thread (SD -you know it's 'suped' eh?)...forgot to change back a la Llanfair... The sig's hilarious - makes me laugh every time I see it.

cheers,

<font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
<font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>

 

I am indeed blind.
I managed to spot all em dodges n sidestep...but missed the cracks n the flashes...
I still cannot see those flashes....

i did see the penis on the first go though....not sure if that's a good thing/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

<font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN~~~'