Gameplay quick thoughts

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

Bryan, I thought the animations were great! Even though the vid qualities are obviously limited, I thought the improvement was obvious.

As for this terrain thing...I can't speak for others, but I know I get annoyed like hell when something is supposed to hit but it doesn't because some character on some weird, unpredictable terrain avoided it--accidentally--by the hairest millimeter. Sure, you can adjust and go for other attacks, but these attacks sacrifice something for the independence to slope, and crazy stuff still happens despite your best intentions...stuff that are difficult to predict all the time. Basically, "guaranteed" situations are harder to ensure. The players who benefit are the beginners who don't know any better, because now they have more randomness on their side. This is my main beef with terrain--it simply introduces more randomness. And this is coming from a guy who considers himself great at adjusting to terrain.

Given a choice, I wouldn't have ditched the terrain in VF3, as long as some flat stages are provided. The only terrain I really don't like to play on are extremes like Pai and Lion stages. I really don't mind anything else, but I can understand the direction that AM2 is going in.

Finally, terrain affects the gameplay in DOA2, so VF3 is no longer unique in that respect.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/24/01 10:14 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

I'm with Bryan and Manoel, I definitely don't think very highly of the monk right now. He just seems to play so boring, but of course it's all a little early. All those "hyaahs" he makes are a little grating though.

As for the gameplay...the familiarity is both relieving and disappointing. I really was expecting VF4 to be significantly different, leveling the playing field. But now it seems that good VF3 players will have a big headstart in VF4.

As for the glowing lights...I can only accept them if they are temporary or transitory. If they remain in the final product and never disappear I will be peeved.

 

Flat or uneven?

Personally, I don't give a damn which stage is selected.

As long as the BGM rocks. (case in point, I banned the desert stage, too damn boring...background n BGM wise)

Unfortunately, BGM for vf3 is pretty much flat......

On a serious note, I don't mind which stage is chosen. If I know the stage benefits a certain character, I pay attention and try to reverse that move or stop the challenger from using it on me.

Kinda makes in challenging for myself.

Me...I'm actually starting to hate the idea of cages. Knowing I might fall to death makes the game more challenging for me.

I do agree though that the stages in VF3 makes VF very different compared to the rest.

Too bad every non VFer/reviewer I know either
a)can't tell the diffs
b)acknowledges the diffs, yet don't understand it
c)COMPLETELY forgets to mention it
d)did u see the background in Tekken? (completely missing the point we are taking abt the stage, not background)


<font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy not SPODED, enemy not DOWN~~~'

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

Ice...u forgot abt me (could be becos I never expressed it here but only to u on ICQ last nite) /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

All those silly "heeeee...hyaaaaa....hoooooooo aaaahhhhhh" sound effects annoys the shit outta me...esp in their high pitch tone

ie...Jann Lee...Yun, Yang, the bruce lee wanna be from world heroes...

<font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy not SPODED, enemy not DOWN~~~'

 

Re: Flat or uneven?

the (ob) desert stage rocks! as does the BGM on that stage....

 

Re: Flat or uneven?

great~
now u can put that onto the list on the many things we do not agree on.~/versus/images/icons/wink.gif

<font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy not SPODED, enemy not DOWN~~~'

 

Re: Flat or uneven?

hehe - yeh /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Re: Flat or uneven?

the (ob) desert stage rocks! as does the BGM on that stage....

I gotta go with SummErs on the desert stage. But the BGM is verrry nice, though not as nice as the great wall stage!/versus/images/icons/cool.gif


-<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=blue>DOG</font color=blue>

 

Yah..but the way I wrote it, its just that much more funny

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

Hey Ice-9. Nice to see that you had a good time at E3 and the VF bash. Anyway, on to business:
As for the gameplay...the familiarity is both relieving and disappointing. I really was expecting VF4 to be significantly different, leveling the playing field. But now it seems that good VF3 players will have a big headstart in VF4.

I don't think that good VF3 players will have as big a headstart as you think. There's an readjustment phase that will go into playing the game. The absence of the 'E' button calls for readjusting to tapping twice in the intended direction, not to mention that it will require more frames. And the addition of Quick Rise, or QR or whatever it is, cuts down on the almost guaranteed pounce follow-ups to some attacks (ESK, Sarah's Elbow-Knee) and ura as well.
Of course I could be missing something, but I don't see how the "good VF3 players" would have that much of an advantage. Not meaning to flame, just adding my two cents.


-<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=blue>DOG</font color=blue>

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

well, to a certain extent, yes. This was discussed when VF3 was coming out as well - and there were many stellar VF2 players that were excellent VF3 players, but there were also many new VF3 players who became good as well. Of course hardcore veteran VF3 players will have an advantage in some ways: 1) interest and 2) dexterity and move familiarity of flow charts etc...

goes without saying...

<font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
<font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

From a yomi standpoint veteran players will definitely have an advantage from what I can see, in addition to the stuff Llanfair said. Still, I would think that new players would easier adjust to the new movement system while we're all screaming for the E button.

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

re: sky behind fighters in character select screen as in VF1

the font used for the character select screen as well as the KO, GAME OVER etc indicators is identical to the VF1 font.

 

Re: My analysis

> VF2 and VF3 play differently (speed-wise) only because of the changes in frame rates, recovery times (or lack of), etc.

i do so love google groups. in ten seconds i found what i was looking for. it's interesting reading; most of the important moves only had one or a few frames added.

(fuck, i think this is screwed w/o a fixed width font - goddammit, i HATE these fucking message boards).

From: yupasawa@aol.com (yupasawa@aol.com)
Subject: [VF2 vs. VF3] Which is faster anyways??? (Jacky)
Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade
Date: 1996/11/28




BigCat *meow* <usagi@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:
]On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 Yupasawa@aol.com wrote:
]> BigCat *meow* <usagi@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:

] > ] * General Gameplay
] > ]
] > ] Oh geez... where do i start. First off, i'd just like to say
] that in my
] > ] opinion, it is -not- slower than VF2. In fact, i think it runs
] at about
] > ] VFK (saturn) speed. While i only had the chance to play for
] about two
] > ] hours, i got the impression that the control was... well...
] choppy. In
] > ] fact, it felt a lot like we were back to VF1. I think this has
] a whole
] > ] lot to do with extended recovery times, and shorter execution
] times,
] >
] > This is due to changed/smoother animation IMHO. I have a feeling
] that once
] > we get a look at the new frame stats, the moves will be almost
] exactly the
] > same as their VF2 counterparts.
]
] I'm not sure about that... the fact is that the transition from one
] move
] to another is very pronouced, and rolled combos look a little, well,
] unnatural, kind of like the way they do in Tekken. The canned
] combos are
] beautiful, and smooth (a little -too- smooth in Jacky's case, i
] think).


OK, here are some hard numbers thanks to Colin Leong:


Jacky Bryant

VF2 VF3 Changes

Move Dam/Ex-Ht-Rec Dam/Ex-Ht-Rec Dam Ex Ht Rec Total
---- ------------- ------------- --- -- -- --- -----

P 12/10-2-9 12/ 9-2-12 -1 +3 +2
d+P 10/10-2-8 9/10-1-14 -1 -1 +6 +5
K 30/12-4-22 25/13-2-32 -5 +1 -2 +10 +9
d/b+K 10/16-2-22 15/14-1-26 +5 -2 -1 +4 +1
d/f+K 25/14-3-29 25/14-2-30 -1 +1

PP 12/ 8-2-16 12/ 8-2-19 +3 +3
PPP 14/11-2-15 14/10-2-20 -1 +5 +4
PK (near) 19/12-3-21 19/12-2-27 -1 +6 +5
PK (far) 30/18-4-18 30/18-4-19(33) +1 +1
F+PK 30/12-4-22 20/12-2-25 -10 -2 +3 +1
Pd+K 20~40/22-4-34 20~40/22-4-35(42) +1 +1
PPK 30/14-2-28 30/14-2-29 +1 +1
PPb+P 22/14-4-28 22/15-1-29 +1 -3 +1 -1
PPf+P 19/11-2-21 19/15-2-25 +4 +4 +8
PPf+PK 30/14-4-30 20/14-2-31 -10 -2 +1 -1

f+P 19/11-2-21 19/11-2-22 +1 +1
f+PK 30/14-4-30 20/14-2-31 -10 -2 +1 -1

b+P 22/14-4-14 22/15-1-21 +1 -3 +7 +5
b+PP 30/14-4-22 25/15-1-30 -5 +1 -3 +8 +6
b+Pd/b+P 22/15-3-25 15/16-1-25 -7 +1 -2 -1
b+PK 30~50/25-3-32 25~50/25-3-33(39) ~-5 +1 +1
b+Pd+K 20~35/25-3-36 20~35/25-3-37(49) +1 +1
d/b+P 22/15-3-22 22/15-2-30 -1 +8 +7
d/b+PK 20~35/29-3-36 20~35/28-4-37(43) -1 +1 +1 +1

P+K 30/14-4-32 20/14-3-34 -10 -1 +2 +1
d/f+P 14/11-3-16 10/12-2-21 -4 +1 -1 +5 +5

KK 30/20-2-34 20/19-2-34 -10 -1 -1
d+K 24/18-4-24 24/18-2-25 -2 +1 -1
b+K 20/17-3-20 20/17-2-26 -1 +6 +5
f+K 30/15-2-29 30/15-2-30 +1 +1
ff+K 30/12-4-30 30/13-3-31 +1 -1 +1 +1
u/b+K 60/10-4-50 50/12-4-51 -10 +2 +1 +3
K+G 30~50/24-6-24 30~50/24-6-25(34) +1 +1
K+Gd+K+G 20~40/18-4-40 20~40/19-3-41(48) +1 -1 +1 +1
bf+K+G 36/16-3-41 36/17-3-41 +1 +1
d+K+G 20/18-2-36 25/18-1-33 +5 -1 -3 -4

Ground attacks and throws are all the same damage.
Ground attacks take 1 frame longer to recover in VF3.


Summary:
--------

Damage was toned down except for the low kick and shin slicer.

Almost all common attacks take longer to recover, except for the shin
slicer.

The kickflip is severely toned down. It does 10 pts less damage, takes 2
frames longer to come out, and most importantly, cannot be followed with a
pounce.

Punch-high kick and (punch-punch-)elbow-heel kick do 10 less pts of
damage.

The PPEK was slowed down. AFAIK, it is not a true combo anymore.


Later,
Yupa


--
For a condensed VF3 movelist, check out
http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/~chubb

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

Hehe, memories of E3 Gathering matches come to mind (and I'm sure that's what he was mostly referring to on terrain BS).

Was not gonna mention it until I finished a report, but that's just taking too long. On Saturday, I had beaten Jeff quite a bit by selecting terrain based stages. I didn't beat him a whole lot, but many rounds had the terrain BS as a factor. One of the more extreme examples was Lion stage. I was at the top of the stairs with Lion and Kage was on a lower elevation than my Lion, but he through a direct sidekick head on at me and it whiffed as I ducked. We were down to very little health so I countered with something simple and killed him. I think I even slowed down the replay to check it out, and sure enough it would have hit normally (and to think, I'm the one on higher elevation here). Anyways, it was sometime after this that Jeff starts talking about why he feels it's very likely a factor that flat stages are kept. Mentioning it's very hard to balance out a game when things like terrain are thrown in.

I don't know how much AM2 is concerned about balance in VF4 at present though (given one of the more recent interviews--wasn't Suzuki).

In any case, as a non-expert, I admit that the BS of terrain has allowed me to get quite a few round wins in VF3tb with Lion (whom I always think of as around the lower tier, but I'm probably wrong). Lots of BS on slopes against Jeff at E3 and Rich at VG (during a Saturday night skirmish with Ghostdog).

Other than the BS (heck, Lion already causes Kage to whiff enough as it is), I still like terrain a lot. Will especially miss seeing the DS specific Akira combos.

The new issue with rings... they really are tiny and cramped. I like that feel in FV, but don't know if I'll like that feel in VF. At least it doesn't have last bronx jumps, strings, and similar G-Cancels to make walls a true danger zone...

-Chanchai

 

Re: thread vieweres: replies to several

> Anyways, it was sometime after this that Jeff starts talking about why he feels it's very likely a factor that flat stages are kept. Mentioning it's very hard to balance out a game when things like terrain are thrown in.

Well, my observation wasn't directed specifically at you, there wasn't that much terrain B.S., although I realized how much easier it was to beat you on flat ground. I have much more trouble against super machi Aoi players on terrain with Kage. Your Lion reminded me of those Aoi players who purposely took advantage of terrain, which led me to the realize why AM2 may have eliminated it and chose instead (perhaps) to strengthen terrain loving characters like Aoi and Lion to compete on equal flat ground (pun somewhat intended).

 

Re: My analysis

Having just had a DC vf3tb right next to an arcade ob machine, I can definately say that in my opinion the DC tb is clearly faster. It was also the consensus among the whole group playing.

Btw, it seems like the whole group from london who are used to playing on the DC tb, preferred the arcade machine even tho it was ob, which they didn't like much (got several of them complaining about how Pai was overpowered coz of her no-recovery Inashi in ob, heh heh).

The arcade version is just so more solid than the DC one.

 

Re: My analysis

So did anyone try out Myke's 600 frames test?

 

Re: My analysis

thank you, jan!

that's what i've been repeating for two years. DC vf3tb: complete FILTH.