Gamespy.com Feature - VF4 Evo vs SC2

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ferricide said:
i did recommend that people should pick up both games.


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*2 thumbs up*

P.S. What's the deal with Sarah : Slut/Assassin !!!? Lol what's that all about ?

 

Feedback about the history of fighting games section: the content was wavering between objective and subjective...my suggestion would be to stick to one style and be consistent. Also, the history was written from the perspective of Western gaming--you should clarify up front about that to avoid misunderstanding.

Overall, an interesting read and mostly well written. Of course there was a lot of stuff I disagreed with and a few minor points that I thought was completely wrong, but you can't please everyone!

 

C'mon Ice gamespy's always been written from the perspective of western gaming. You're nitpicking

And you're right the article wasn't 100% objective, but overall it was somewhat accurate imo. (Man Toshinden didn't get no type of love !)

 

is gamespy based in northern calif? just wondering... still on the lookout for more vf players in san francisco...

 

Here's a post by a disgruntled SC2 fan, unhappy that SC2 didn't receive a perfect score in EGM. Isn't his behavior completely typical of people on fan boards? Why then, should you be so surprised to come to a VF fan board and find (gasp) fans of VF not wanting it to be shown in the best light possible, all of the time? That's kind of what being a fan is about! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think, if anything, you're only choosing to respond to the most extreme cases who defend VF. In my reply I cleary affirmed that SC2 is probably the best choice for the average consumer in the West; you as an editor personally and editors of magazines in the west in general by and large confirmed this on a wide scale this month, with most magazines and online publications acknowledging VF4Evo as the superior fighter, yet still recommending SC2 as the better purchase (I realize I am grouping all people who said "buy both" in with the "SC2 is better," but who has time for the noncomittal? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

I've been in many a debate on this forum regarding the press' responsibility to what's delineated in their reviews and features. Ultimately, reviews should serve as a guide for what their readers should probably spend their earned dollar on. In this particular case, Gamespy seems to declare the race "too close to call," but I did feel the "head to head" implied the average game player would have a better experience with SC2, and I tend to agree.

I am curious to know, since it seems we have you here to offer your side, whether things like game play consistency, character balance, or combat system integrity as a whole enters into the equation when reviewing a fighter at all - as these are my personal issues with Namco fighters in general, SC2 being no exception.

 

It's not like I can't take a joke. I just think the head to head was pretty dumb. No offense. Let me tell you why.

'Important (non-joke) catagory' winners.
Graphics: Soul Calibur
Sound: Soul Calibur
Gameplay (fun): Soul Calibur
Gameplay (technical): VF
Characters (design): Soul Calibur
Characters (technical): VF
Single Player: VF
Multi-player: Soul Calibur

Before we 'got crazy', VF has basically lost 5-3. It's less fun and more technical than SC. Now if I'm the average consumer, I'm going to look at this and say. "Well... SC is more FUN and has better graphics, I'll get it instead of VF which looks too 'technical' and isn't fun enough".

Now I don't want to say that you're not allowed to have an opinion, it's fine. In fact, I'm not bashing you for writing the review. I just thought that the rest of the catagories were not as important as these, and SC took VF on most accounts. I believe you guys added the nice 'joke' catagories to push VF closer =) But hey, I'm just being bitter.

The truth is, that SC players outnumber VF players by a lot. We as VF players want to increase our ranks and get more people into the VF scene which is extremely small outside of Japan. That's why I nitpick. I know you rated VF high and it's actually a breath of fresh air that most reviewers are giving VF a nice high rating. But the hype machine is ruling out the ratings. On the front page of every magazine and gaming site they have SC, but VF is relegated to the back. In fact, it's rare that there's a splash on any gaming website proclaiming VF's 'best of all timeness'. It's always relegated to the back.

Anyway, it's just ironic to me that VF is proclaimed the 'best fighting game of all time' in most publications, and then quickly shooed to the back of the room to make way for the hype machine.

 

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Anyway, it's just ironic to me that VF is proclaimed the 'best fighting game of all time' in most publications, and then quickly shooed to the back of the room to make way for the hype machine.

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That's not irony. That's business.

There seems to be a lot of crowing in this thread about SC undeservedly beating VF, and to the whiners, I have to say....agh. Just accept the fact that SC2 is a great game. VF4 is too. In fact, they both kick huge amounts of ass. So why can't we just enjoy both and stop taking the opinion of some silly gaming site so seriously? They both scored incredibly high, and incredibly close - 96 to 97. They both rock, and they both should be played till your eyeballs melt and your fingers bleed. That's all there is to it.

I've been there - angry that my favorite movie/TV show/game isn't getting enough attention or respect in the media. But whinging doesn't help things. Just bask in the collective geekery of The Cult (Of Virtua Fighter) and enjoy the game, content that there are people out there who share your obsession.

 

Eh... I know Soul Calibur is a good game.
And I know that's business, but it's also ironic.

I just wish Sega of America did more to promote VF in the states. They didn't even REDO the VF website! All the info on there is old. Sega EUROPE has a better website than Sega US... psh.

I played a lot of SC back in the day, and SC2 in the arcades... but nothing has gripped me like VF so ... =)
SC is still a good game though.

 

guys this is all an unseriosly! Soul Calibur huh what is it?! an other foolish buttun-masher game for the kids under 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gifwhat the f**k /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gifSC is sux! we are the hardcore players we we play in hardest fighting!!!

hmmm SC is the game for a masses heh becouse masses always be stupid..... we are better /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

I have some freinds that think soul calibur is the shit. It's the game of 'strategy'. Well, Im sure thats true and Ive played alot of soul calibur. But there wasnt any innovation in SCII. Parry repel and alternate your moves. Both games SCII and Evo have lots of variation, lots of moves ,but where the VF series has always risen above the others is in the throw game. We all know in namco games its one punch or the other 50/50 guess game. And we all know the difficulty of breaking throws in VF. I only play 3 video games , and thats because of the difficulty. Only games that create difficulty arouse my attention. Im ranked 850 in moto gp 2 and 650 in moto gp 1 on xbox live. And ive decided to say goodbye to SCII. Its just too much of the same ol same ol. I didnt need any magazine to know that Evo is the best "EVER". Once I played I knew. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

ive read the gameplay relevant part of the "clash", and all i can say is that its shallow. but i didnt expect anything out of it anyway. at least it didnt turn out to be a complete disaster.

im sorry, but "It's an extremely technically advanced game, but it just doesn't match VF4E."

extremely technically advanced game? how do you define that? why isnt there an explanation of what exactly is technically advanced?
there wasnt even an attempt to dissect the gameplay, the changes, and where the game is lacking.

why wasnt mentioned, that namco actually was as stupid to remove motion input during blocks? why wasnt mentioned that collision detection is compeletey fucked up? (long range moves can be countered by small fast moves, even if they cannot reach the opponent, when a long range move and a short range move collide, both attackers take the damage of a major counter. oh, to avoid misunderstaning. just image astaroths longest move, a+b hits a move made by say talim at longest range possible. thats the situation) what the hell is with that?

what kind of stupidity forced the designers to implement very fast moves/combos, that leave the opponent in a long guard stun or even worse, force a crouch, which is a very shitty situation for the victim, since rising moves are slow as hell, and generally pretty much useless. this is what i call small risk, big reward. ohh, what could be wrong with THAT....

on to repells:

thanks to the lack of a set of fast moves for every character (im talking about stuff like a punch, so a fast, punch like move for everyone with the same speed and range) repells are pretty much useless for slower characters (i picked astaroth, btw).
you cannot deal any damage after a repell, simply because there isnt a move that is fast enough to punish, and dont tell me forward+a , it has virtually no range and back+b is too slow. so only thing left is a throw, if you are in the range for one, that is. but thanks to the retarded throw system, throws are easily escaped.

besides, why the hell can someone be thrown during a move? again, this affects slow characters the most. how does this make any sense? how is it fair, or balanced?

on to buffering:
simply, there is none. doing combos is not fun, just a big pain in the ass.look at how virtua fighter makes comboing easy, it aids you doing simple stuff, easy canceling, and still is deep enough to implement stuff like buffering forward/backward dash for certain moves in combos. all in all smart implementation.

in sc2, its nothing but painfull guessing/memorizing, when a move ends/when you can start with another.. oh, did i mention manco hat the stupid to remove movement input during block (that one really pisses me off)?

technically advanced? looks like a loose coolection of moves to me, without any though given how they will work out in the game.

so this technically advanced game offeres you a system, that doesnt make sence (is it even a system then?), there are a lot of balancing issues. still, gamespy calls it technically advanced. why? to appeal the lanrge fanboy mob? why not tell that the gameplay is shit? this is a game after all, thats the most important aspect. a game cannot be good, when even basic stuff isnt though out well, when there are a lot of cheese and some completely useless moves?

and fun? i didnt have any fun with it. i dont know how this can be fun. there is zero challenge to it, a lot of stuff that doesnt make sense. its like playing a racing game withough drifts, shifting etc.
its like playing a racer on rails (heh, funny stuff, but actually there was a game like that for the psx, oh the horror!)

now for sc2 saving grace:

great character design. or it would be, if it wasnt as colorfull as a disney movie. you got a medieval setting, and then this? some of the fighters are very cool, cant deny it. astaroth/nightmare are my all-time favourites in any beat em up (design-wise). but what the hell is with talim? some little kid in garbs that made my eyes bleed, and then the voice (i have the jap version). i tried to cut off my ears with a spoon after i heared her voice.
its a mish-mash of great desing stir fried with crap.

graphics arent ipressive either. its all about effects, take that away, and it looks average. actually, i found those hitting effects to be more then just annoying, but thats probably a matter of preference.

last point is the music. meh, what the hell is this? did namco fire all composers that made the godly music of soul edge? there is a nice remix of mitsurugi theme here, but nothing impressive.

all in all, sc2 is more like 70% in my book. its lacking in all departments. it might be fun to play for many, but still, it shouldnt be rated as high. just mention is fun, and if you refuse to learn anything and improve, just go and get it. otherwise its a waste of money.

found spelling/grammar errors? good for you, im not a "native", so bare with me...

 

i think both games are in two completely different categories. SC2 not only being slightly medival or whatever ,weapon-based AND fantasy dont really compare to VF4:evolution's being during the present day(well sorta) non weapon based and being realistic(with a little slack). No one in a martial arts tournament these days will show up looking like some of the characters from SC2! its just what the games are going for and what some people like. I love how the VF4 characters are kept true to life and look like hardcore real life martial arts masters! VF4:Evolution owns!!!!!

 

I bought SC2 /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif It was the only game around here that people play. I'm dam sick of fighting the AI in VF. I feel totally ripped off I payed $50 for this game when the superior VF4 or Evo only costs $20. Also, its the exact same game as SC on Dreamcast! Damnit, I'm going to have to try and convert these guys to VF!

 

this is not the point. a game can be flawed, regardles of genre/and competition it is put agains or other factors.

you can very well compare the system (who well though out is it?), implementation of moves, balance. this stuff can be compared.

now setting, character design, music and cosmetic stuff is a different thing. comparing this is pointless and is merely a matter of taste.

virtua figher is not a sim. its not trying to be one. its a great game. there are great games, medicore and shitty ones.
sc2 falls under medicore. thats it. its that simple. thats the whole comparison. it fails in gameplay department.

if you like it, fine. play it, noone is saying its wrong, but when testing/comparing, flaws and shortcoming must be pointed out and taken into account. that s what gamespy didnt do. they were throwing around technical this and technical that and in the end sc2 won? what exactly? do gamespy guys even know what?

 

The reason for this is simple... game reviewers are rarely fighting game enthusiasts, and shouldn't be considered as such. Stuff that people who REALLY play fighting games notice just slides right by an uninformed reviewer. However, even SC2 has good technical aspects. The problem I've heard is that sidestepping in SC2 is too good, and only certain characters can step effectively, leading to tiers. After reading a lot of posts on SC2, I'm seeing that most people don't take the game seriously really... anymore at least.

 

SC2 is a good game for folks who want fight each others AI characters but for good technical aspects? Hmmm...

Guard Impact? No practical reason to use this unless the move can't be stepped,ducked, and has no recovery time.

Air Control? Pretty good until you realize nobody in their right mind will do a combo that has the potential for them to miss and possibly get torn up because of SC2 insta-rise.

Break? Aside from killing the moves designed to stop idiotic rushes (aside from low kicks) it's slightly easier
to perform than trying to trade hits in VFE.

Clash? A cool pause in the heat of gameplay? I'm afraid Samurai Shodown 1 did this better than SC2.

8 Way Run/Step? To show that SC2 is a REAL 3D fighter and not some half-ass 2d wannabe? *Funfact* Namco had to know Step is broken as the CPU on ultra hard does damn near perfect stepping practically never overstepping their bounds.

Oh well, I'm out of ideas of what good system SC2 has. Soul Charge maybe? I think the best thing about the game is getting cool sparks from your unblockable cancels and using them on your normal moves (Twirling Fire Ivy pwns you). That needs to be in VF5 along with Link, Spawn, and Heihachi. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Man some of you guys have problems BIG TIME. It's as if unless someone goes out and give VF a perfect 10 (and even then you still hear complaints) : "Oh they're biased and only love SC"

*SIGH*This is starting to become useless and childish, but here I go defending SC again for the last time.

-Motion input on block ? :
I don't know what you mean by that sorry.

-Hit collision : If anything VF's collision issues are much more flagrant then SC's. I personally don't care about it as long as it doesn't affect gameplay too much.

-Balance : Guess who made it to the Evo 2k3 finals in SC2 ? Good ol SLOW Astaroth joined by another SLOW and powerful character Nightmare. Also, did you know that the 8 SC2 finalists each had different characters ? Also did you know that Mitsurugi, Kilik, and Cervantes weren't picked in the finals at all ?

Sounds like a pretty well balanced game to me. Maybe it's YOUR Astaroth that sucks.

-Throws : Get the dvd when it comes out, you'll be surprise to see the number of throws that weren't escaped. Contrary to popular belief they're a big part of the SC strat.

-Buffering : ''No buffering in SC'' LOL /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif If you say so Lol.

-''Fighting system'' : You're right SC is more about mind games then Spods, DLCs, ETTEGs who da fuck didn't know that ? Nobody said that it was superior to VF's system.

-Graphics : Second behind DOA3.

-Music : Superior to Evo and far from average.


Gay ass fanboy conspiracy theories :
''You know why SC gets so much praise ? It's because Namco bought out all the European, North American, and Japanese medias. And all those poor consumers buy into the whole propaganda, it's disgusting. Die Namco DIE. VF is so deep and rewarding it's a disgrace that the magazines give it only a 9.5 ; 9.9 ; 10 ; 10... It deserves more and the reviews only explain little about the game and it's so deep and it deserves more and never mind that Sega didn't do too much to promote it and did I mention that it was deep. No other fighting game comes close, heck there shouldn't be any other fighting game on the market and the game's so deep it's unbeleivable. Oh shit I ejaculated on myself again...''





Lol when will it ever stop ? Overall I think Evo got better scores than SC2 but nah that's not good enough now, some ppl want 4 pages explaining boring shit (to none fighting game fans) like TEs, CD canceling, frames and Tech FUCKING rolls... Lol are you serious, get real ppl ? Talk about extremists Lol. Anyways can't wait for the VF5 SC3 clash Lol.

 

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Man some of you guys have problems BIG TIME. It's as if unless someone goes out and give VF a perfect 10 (and even then you still here complaints) : "Oh they're biased and only love SC"


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you miss the point. another example:
a german gaming tv (www.giga.de) reviewd vf4 evo and gave it an almost perfect score. fine you say? i was watchig that particular review and these people couldnt even pull a combo. not talking about stuff like backdash, throwescapes and simple stuff like that. not even a simple two hitter.
what was their review based on? did they pull the score out of their asses? thats the point. they say deep technical fighter, but dont give a good reason why it is one. you should expect a little more explaining on this.

now ill just quote some gamespy guy here:

"Nutt, Xbox Editor:
To my mind, you're not really much of a gamer if you didn't have a Dreamcast and play Soul Calibur till you were blue in the face. I'm sure I've offended some people with that statement, but I call 'em like I see 'em"

lookie here. what do we have here? according to this statement, he is a hardcore player.... and still there is no indepth review, or comparison to be seen.

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*SIGH*This is starting to become useless and childish, but here I go defending SC again for the last time.


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defending?
apparently your fanboy-defense-system was triggered. doh, its not about bashing sc2. i stated what i though of the game/what i disliked/what i think is broken. there is nothing to defend, but rather to explain. something you didnt do in your post. and about being childish, read your own posts before claiming something is childish. the manner you are replying in attests you the age of 13..

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-Motion input on block ? :
I don't know what you mean by that sorry.


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any move that requires a direction input plus attack. you cannot input direction then release block, press the attack key and get the move you wanted. not anymore.
namco did good to steal/borrow (whatever, its irrelevant) segas concept in cs1. they were really dumb enough to remove that from sc2. still cant believe it.

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-Hit collision : If anything VF's collision issues are much more flagrant then SC's. I personally don't care about it as long as it doesn't affect gameplay too much.


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lol, stuff like that brakes games. and by the way, explain me now, how vf has move flagrant hit-collision issues.

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-Balance : Guess who made it to the Evo 2k3 finals in SC2 ? Good ol SLOW Astaroth joined by another SLOW and powerful character Nightmare. Also, did you know that the 8 SC2 finalists each had different characters ? Also did you know that Mitsurugi, Kilik, and Cervantes weren't picked in the finals at all ?
Sounds like a pretty well balanced game to me. Maybe it's YOUR Astaroth that sucks.


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tournament results are always vague.




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-Throws : Get the dvd when it comes out, you'll be surprise to see the number of throws that weren't escaped. Contrary to popular belief they're a big part of the SC strat.
Sounds like a pretty well balanced game to me. Maybe it's


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you mean those throws that can be escaped with the press of one single button?

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-Buffering : ''No buffering in SC'' LOL /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif If you say so Lol.


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why dont you try to explain, instead of going "omfg rofl kthxbai"

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-''Fighting system'' : You're right SC is more about mind games then Spods, DLCs, ETTEGs who da fuck didn't know that ? Nobody said that it was superior to VF's system.


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mindgames? only limited to fighting while standing? theres virtually no mid/low game. you dont even need to duck [yes, i even wasted my time with watching touri vids. [some of em can be found here http://sc.relaxism.com). ducking is almost not there.
its not about vf being superiour, its about sc2 being limited. im not compairing here, i have my gripes with sc2, and thats what what i posted

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-Graphics : Second behind DOA3.


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what exactly? texturing? vf4 has cleaner textures, better mimic.

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-Music : Superior to Evo and far from average.


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far from average? thats your opinion. for me its poor, especially when you compare it to soul blade.

im not going to quote the last paragraph, but apparently, you failed to understand.

my problem with reviews is that scores seem to be based on nothing. not a single review, neither a vf4 nor sc2 explained why exactly something is deep or technical. not even simple propper expamples were included. you always read praise, thats enough to think reviewers dont know what they are writing, and just giving scores based on... seriously i dont know where they get the scores.



boring bullshit? this it the point here. if you want to explain a score and why something is deep and technical, you need to at least try and explain stuff like that. to be able to explain gameplay mechanics and give a better insight, without writing 4 pages of "technical crap" is what i call being competent, and thats exactly what i expect from a reviewer.
just mention the simplicity of the three button layout, block beats punch, throw beats block, punch beats throw. plus throw escaping techniques and stuff that goes with it.and the fact that you need to think in advance, when to buffer throw escapes etc. thats hardly half a page. this is exactly something you learn after completing the training modus.
a beat em up isnt a racer or shooter. the most important part is gameplay and reviewers need to focus on that instead of comparing irrelevant stuff like boni you can unlock. its woth some mentioning, but not more then 1-2 sentences.

and conspiracy thoeries? what theory did i put up again?

 

I give up you win ! I have finally seen the light it's all clear to me now Lol.
Anyways, I said it was the last time, lets just wait for VF5 and SC3 to come out it seems like I've been arguing about this for ages, so it's starting to get old now. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So if I understand SC2 is a broken game with weak graphics, so so character design, poor music, primitive fighting engine, unbalanced characters, poor throwing game, Astaroth sucks, no buffering Lol.
Whoa, there's no need for me to argue beyond this point you win.

 

Heh, i think everyone already knows where i stand on this. One thing though:

Most people hate challenges. I remember when i first started playing the guitar 15 years ago... I was learning out of the old Mel Bay books. My teacher would tell my mom, "He's got promise, but he gives up at the hard parts and skips over them." I lacked patience, and i was generally afraid of a challenge. Having to take serious time to learn anything bored the hell outta me... took the fun out of playing. All i wanted to do was sound good. So i made a choice to practice through the tough spots.

12 years later, i'm playing on stage in a jazz/blues band at a college bar every week. This isn't to say i'm the next Stevie Ray, but playing "Who Knows" (Band of Gypsies) is slightly more satisfying than "She'll Be Coming 'Round the Mountain" arranged by Mel Bay.

You probably already see where i'm going with this. But to tie this (very loosely) to fighting games: Lots of people are interested only in making things look cool on the screen. Personally, i like the fact that in VF you have to use quite a bit of skill, precision, knowledge and dexterity to defeat your opponent, and looking good doing it is only a by-product of these things. Looking good in the "more accessible" games comes largely from the flash associated with move animations, not because you performed ECD from a small disadvantage, ducked a throw and came up with a throw that starts in a from-crouching motion. So when Joe Gamer picks up GMR *shudder* or goes to GameSpy, he's not interested in reading about dodging semi-circular attacks or inashis or whatever. He wants to know how cool Link is vs. Spawn, whether Lizardman is playable, and if there's any blood this year.

Spend a relatively short (but equal) amount of time playing SC2 and Evo starting at square 1 (i.e. no knowledge), and you'll find yourself liking SC2 a lot more because it doesn't take much to get the characters on the screen doing all kinds of over-the-top anime-esque fighting sequences. The animations look like you're doing a whole lot, even when you're not. Hence SC2 gets the better score because it's slightly more satisfying to play in the short run.

Which brings me to the review scores and whatnot: i understand that nobody wants to see VF glossed over. But grasping some of the concepts in VF takes time and patience, and when you review games for a living, you probably don't have a whole lot of either. You also may be suffering from "Mel Bay" syndrome, as described above. Totally understandable.

That said, i do appreciate some VFers' frustration at the lack of even semi-comprehensive coverage of Evo. Poor coverage of the game's more advanced techniques and concepts would call into question some of the screwed up ideas folks have about VF's system. Hell, that's why so many people lambast VF for being "a wrestling game"... they're fucking clueless. They don't realize that once you're halfway decent at buffering throw escapes and such, throwing factors less and less into gameplay. They don't know that, for example, abusing Jeffry's sidekick will get you tossed on a regular basis. So they lose to lower level AI in the game by getting thrown all the time. They don't know how to cope, or aren't willing to put forth the effort to get good at throw escapes, so they run back to the 50-50 1 button press throw escape system in SC2. Skipping over the hard parts. See?

(Side note: escaping throws in VF is one of the most satisfying occurrences for me. Go figure.)

I wonder if any of this is even coherent...