General Strategy of VF

Discussion in 'Lei' started by HofHaH, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. HofHaH

    HofHaH Member

    I just had a breakthrough in the way I think about VF5FS.
    Positional Play. As in, It's legit to Knock opponents out of the ring coupled with doing as many wall combos as possible. It sounds stupid but it was a revelation.

    I have watched hundreds of hours of Japanese casual matches over the years and they seem to have this "honor code". If their opponents are close to the ledge, they back off, so I never considered positional play or thought I should be on the look out for it while watching their matches. But in truth every character has many tools to instantly reverse a potential ring out or wall combo. It's just rare to see it even at the highest levels. I think the developers intended positional play as integral to the gameplay.

    This "revelation" has given me new appreciation for the game. It bleeds into what OM's are good for (I could never figure it out) and when to use directional attacks, choice of throws and throw breaks (the most vexing).

    From this I'm thinking of a general strategy of how to best play the game to win by either KO or ring out.

    So far I have come up with this:

    1.Get your opponent's back to the wall or near the edge. His options there are more limited and riskier.
    If you are in the middle of the ring, choose combos or throws for damage. But anywhere else choose combos and throws that push your opponent the furthest. At about 1/3 of the way from the edge (+/-), choose throws that reposition your opponent most advantageously.

    2. Close quarters fighting (evade/guard/attack/throw in varying order in fast succession until someone lands a CH or Throw) has a certain rhythm that you'll have to simply internalize. The length of each beat is probably the average frame length (in milliseconds) of most normal attacks in the game.
    When fighting in close quarters, throwing should slightly prevail. and CH attempts a close second.

    3. Stay on the offensive. Best tactic is smothering/pressuring the opponent. Be prepared for every Fall Recovery with an attack or throw (This would require memorizing the OTG page of the wiki on this site.)

    4. Mastering this new dimension of positional play, specifically position reversal through CQ combat. e.g. foregoing a down attack if necessary to OM out of the corner, doing a throw that changes your relative positions when close to the edge. Watching foot positions while fighting and head positions while down to decide what attack to use or which directions to evade. Using half circle attacks to stop them from Evading out of the corner. etc.

    I can't figure out what determines the position you are left in after a throw break. Is it the throw direction, foot position or both or is it preset for every throw? some breaks leave the aggressor 45° to the left or right of the escapee or side turned to the escapee.

    I can't figure out a general rule for what throw escape directions to use on defense relative to ring position. only Back Throw escape if your opponent is between you and the edge with their back to the edge. and forward throw escape if you are near a wall as the defender.

    After this revelation, deciding what direction to use in throw escapes came a bit into focus, also the use of some of the throw escape tech, those pretentious looking ETE and whatnot, but the use of Evading Crouch dash cancelling is still janky and seemingly useless to me.

    What do you think of the Japanese honor code? Am I wrong about anything? Am I right that the developers intended positional play as integral? Is positional play the most ignored part of VF?
     
  2. ShinyBrentford

    ShinyBrentford Well-Known Member

    Japanese honor code? Lol no. They will ring u out if they have the opportunity. Most of the time when players back off away from the ring is cause they have the life lead and don't want to give the opponent a chance to ring them out. It's risky and most of the time not worth it.

    Honor code in vf is the funniest thing I've ever heard of in my life.
     
    MadeManG74, Harpooneer and jm571 like this.
  3. Harpooneer

    Harpooneer Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    poisonhorse
    Japanese players in general seem to play to minimize risk, it just seems to be a style over there. If you back away from the ring edge you minimize the risk. Notice that when they play from behind in life they don't seem to do this as much and you'll see what Shiny is talking about.
    When their back is to the wall or edge it is good for you, but remember that the opponent is usually one throw attempt / evade away from changing the position entirely. This is usually what they are afraid of.

    Edit: Just read what you wrote about evade crouch dash. While I agree that it is overused by many modern players, it is definitely very useful. Using ECD will not get you out of throw attempts or timed lows, but it covers a ton of options that would otherwise destroy your evade game. Specifically it beats full circular highs and might even give you enough time to whiff punish. I'm a much bigger fan of Evade Throw Escape, and feel that you see that more often at high level play, but I wouldn't call it useless.

    For throws, it's more character specific what you want to escape. Some characters have a clear throw they want to use near the wall. Against Jeffry I would always break back when I'm near the wall, unless I have a hard read that my opponent will not do it. The damage potential is so high that you have to fear it. As you gain experience you will learn which throw direction you will want to favor when breaking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    MadeManG74 and Mister like this.
  4. HofHaH

    HofHaH Member

    Sorry for my ignorance what advantages does ECD have over just standing and guarding?
     
  5. oneida

    oneida Long Arm of the Lau Silver Supporter

    PSN:
    oneida_vf
    XBL:
    oneida1
    with ECD, if they throw out a linear move, you will get a successful evade. if they delay throw, you will CD under the throw.
    with standing and guarding, if they throw out a linear move, you will block it. this is less advantageous than a successful evade. If they delay throw, you have 1/3 chance to escape the throw, but you have to read the right throw direction. this is more risky than crouching under a throw, which does not require you to make a decision regarding throw direction.
     
    MadeManG74 likes this.
  6. Dhaval Katbamna

    Dhaval Katbamna Well-Known Member Content Manager Jean

    PSN:
    bkatbamna
    Still loses to immediate throw, delay crouch throw, mid circular, low circular, delayed delay throw, delay GB. Nothing is unbeatable, you always have choices. So depending on whether you're -5 or -6 you've got a few of them. Btw K cancel at -6 to -9 is [​IMG]

    Use it :D
     
    oneida, Mister and Harpooneer like this.
  7. Harpooneer

    Harpooneer Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    poisonhorse
    Yeah, I think if you are learning, it is important not to overvalue ECD. When I first made an account here, people were going on about it like it was the ultimate defensive option, but the fact that you cannot tech a buffered throw (because you need the evade to actually start before you can dash cancel it) makes it a serious risk in my opinion.

    I think you see it rarely in Japan for that reason.

    @Dhaval Katbamna [K][G] Canceling is the greatest technique at all times. It blows everyone up, even when you're +, I get so much more mileage out of it. Plus, you can see how many you can fit in after the round ends for fun.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  8. Dhaval Katbamna

    Dhaval Katbamna Well-Known Member Content Manager Jean

    PSN:
    bkatbamna
    as a jacky player I have iaigeri for that.


    You don't see edc and ecd in Japan? They use it all the time. But a lot of the time it ends up coming out as a successful evade. But you'll see a lot of "stupid" stuff like -5 fuzzy -> ecd to beat immediate throw immediate mid, mid circular mistimed delay throw delay mid half circular and so on just becuse that's their meta game of delaying a lot
     
  9. Harpooneer

    Harpooneer Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    poisonhorse
    Yeah, it makes sense to assume that they are putting ECD inputs in when you see successful evade. I'm just saying that I notice more failed evades / evade late dash cancel in Japan than you would think and the instant throw is probably the reason.

    I agree about the delay game. That style of play is ideal for opening up good defense and rattling people. And it's hard to do it right, because if you broadcast that you will wait on offense dudes will just start stealing your turns.
     
    Dhaval Katbamna likes this.
  10. Dhaval Katbamna

    Dhaval Katbamna Well-Known Member Content Manager Jean

    PSN:
    bkatbamna
    It's impossible to play that way of fishing for CH's with delay online. That naunced playstyle doesn't exist according to XBL and PSN. Which is unfortunate :(
     
  11. Citrus

    Citrus Well-Known Member

    This is porbably the number one thing they should fix in a new VF.
    C**** backing off for whatever reason (most of the time when they have much more health than you).

    Actually I even wonder at times if framedate is that important in a game where all is about RPS and okizeme pressure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  12. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    ECD is life
     
  13. Kruza

    Kruza Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Kruza

    Doesn't exist? According to who?

    Kruza
     
  14. Dhaval Katbamna

    Dhaval Katbamna Well-Known Member Content Manager Jean

    PSN:
    bkatbamna
    according to -15 successful evades and -8 instant ducks
     
  15. Kruza

    Kruza Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Kruza
    I haven't seen this done. Is this from your personal experience? So again I ask... according to who?

    Plus you can't really be referring to any matches played on 2+ bar connections on XBL making that type of statement.

    Kruza
     
  16. Dhaval Katbamna

    Dhaval Katbamna Well-Known Member Content Manager Jean

    PSN:
    bkatbamna
    Its happened to pretty much everyone at one point in their vf lifetime. So yea, personal experience. Nobody has ever ducked one of your throws buffered on a CH 2p online? I find that hard to believe
     
  17. Chill

    Chill +40 DP Content Manager Shun Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    Chill58
    XBL:
    Chill PKG
    I think when you see players 'backing off' when they have their opponent at the ring edge, it's to try to control the space and block the opponent's escape routes.

    It's possible to turn around a ring out opportunity fairly swiftly with the right read - Evading a move is one way (a lot of moves that have a big push-back which is good for a getting a ring out, also have a lot of recovery if evaded), or if the opponent interrupts with a 2P and then uses a throw which switches position.

    Also the closer you are to an opponent when they evade an attack, the more lateral movement they will gain to redirect you towards the ring edge. An extreme example would be something like Goh's [3][K][P] - If both moves are evaded at a close range, it will basically end up in a full 180 degree position switch, and a good chance of getting a back crumple against Goh.

    Dashing away avoids getting into any of these scraps with the opponent. It also can provide an opportunity to bait and whiff punish an attack or failed evade.

    Of course the opponent can dash away from the edge of the ring whilst you are backing away, but it only takes one misstep for them to lose the round!
     
  18. leftylizard

    leftylizard Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    blue mouthwash
    ECD < punishing ;)
     
  19. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer"

    you mean the few moves that are actually punishable? Way more safe moves suddenly become unsafe if evaded or if you ducked under the high portion with you ECD. It should be used just as often as fuzzy.
     
  20. leftylizard

    leftylizard Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    blue mouthwash
    in my opinion ecd isn't critical to learn as a defensive option. maybe useful in certain situational instances but not critical like fuzzy guard,yutori defense,or punishing.
     

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