Getting out of that "turn based" fights

I main akira and as you all know, akira is a pretty straight forward no gimmick char. I don't have Pai's 2kk to bullshit my way up the ranks (although I guess the character itself is s-tier)

And to level myself up, I've been studying a little about frames so currently I'm taking advantage of people that aren't aware of this and trying to do fast elbows and SDE after I do my + moves and works pretty well

BUT, I feel like I'm getting molded into this "turn based" fights. Like I'll do my move, and if it's blocked, I'll guard and the other guy does his, then back to my "turn".

How do I break this habbit? When I just played my online akira, I'll just abare and evade like a fool and get attacks in to win but now that I'm being more conscious about frames, I don't want to do these dangerous moves that puts me in big disadvantage...

 

umm. Throw them?

 

It's appropriate to play VF by looking at the frames and "turns." The idea, though, is that you have a defensive turn and offensive turn. On your offensive turn (the time where you have advantage) you are looking to attack someone guarding wrong or attacking too slowly, or throwing someone guarding high (or guard break, more like). If you're at frame disadvantage, you need to take defensive action, which can be guarding, evading or fuzzying an attack to steal your turn back, or attacking through a throw. Basically, rarely would you want to guard with advantage or throw at disadvantage, but most other options are legit, and you can steal turns with evasive attacks and sabakis too. Playing by turns can only help you, if you know all your good options.

 

Evading more is one way. However, people eventually (may) get to it esp near walls (and for a good reason!) but it certainly breaks some of the turn-based feel. Backdashing is evading too can can be a great tool when followed by timely evade. Sideturned state certainly "tekkenizes" VF situations too, since more constant (but still well thought) offensive becomes important.

I wouldn't be too concerned about fights turning out "turn-based", esp online. Lag modifies the game and makes quick decisions more uncertain which by itself forms a problem.

 

Well I guess I kinda fixed this stupid problem with abare and evades

But that lead to me evading wayyy too much. So I go back to blocking a little more then it was back to attack/grab/guardbreak business.

I guess that's normal though, and how the game's supposed to be played... thanks for the advice all

 

You should consider uploading some matches and ask some feedback for specific matchups and situations. Now that video uploading is piece of cake, I'm surprised how little it's used for guidance/analysis.

 

Spacing, advantage, punish...

Try using spacing to keep yourself at a safe distance from your opponents attacks, yet keeps him in a dangerous position from yours.

Use moves that are overall "safe" on block, then when your opponent thinks it's his turn to attack counter-hit with an appropriate move. Many people online have no idea of frames and advantage/disadvantage. Use that to stun them and make them fear attacking.

Use spacing and advantage to open windows for punishing. Make sure you take as much life as possible. Eventually, the opponent will just get too afraid to attack. May turtle up, which gives you free rain to terrorize him.

Also, try something unexpected (low sweep, random throw, circular move to stop him from evading, cancelled moves....). Have fun with it...

My 2 cents

 

While I like the idea you bring up those thing don't change the turned based nature of things. Once you're fighting someone who knows the pushblock on your moves and knows when it is actually their turn to attack or defend, the game still boils down to turns.

 

I think that's the textbook way to look at the game in terms of the system. However, you are trying to beat your opponent's thinking and K.O. them, not necessarily win the "turn game."

I personally don't think there is a clean way to separate offense and defense. For example, you know you are -5 if your opponent blocks your , so instead of thinking "crap, I'm -5, must block," why not think along these lines.

If my opponent uses fast attacks to beat out a mash, it will most likely be linear, and therefore I can evade it and get into a better position. Thus, you purposefully put yourself on the negative side of frames to then get better position.

Or a scenario I find myself frequently in...

My opponent likes to use big moves at mid frame advantage but sometimes uses a throw to mix-me up. How about I just use a 10 frame move to put an end to all of all that. Thus, I'm being abare with an intention and using offense defensively or at the bare minimum trying to get my opponent to use smaller moves when he or she has advantage

I think if you look at frames and parameters to inform what scenario you are in (i.e. I can fuzzy, free punish, guaranteed throw attempt), they can inform you regarding what are smart options. Sure, turns work but I view them as the "vanilla" play, eventually you'll just make yourself too readable if you make the frame count the only thing you look at.

However, if your opponent thinks in a very linear manner and doesn't adapt to you blocking at disadvantage and then attacking at advantage (which is how most people play), then unfortunately, the "turn" game is the right way to play unfortunately...

 

There's no reason to ever go away from a "turn based" playing style where you pretty much never evade or abare unless the opposing player actually displays a knowledge of VF's two-way guessing game.

Fact is, learning a stable, abare-less game against all characters is one of the best skills you can acquire, it means you will very seldom lose to players who aren't better then you.

 

I see

I see

Well, this is VF. And what you described here is what separates VF from other 3D fighting games - turns. Everyone have a chance to attack. Not like in for example SC, where you can lock your opponent in one long "string" for whole round (yes, I know I am hyperbolizing a little here, but I think you get the idea).
The basic concept of VF is - if you think right, it is your turn. If you guess wrong, it is your opponents turn. Guessing right is - blocking, evading, hitting your opponent. Guessing wrong is - getting hit, getting blocked. Generally, of course.

This is the basic concept of playing VF. If you do not wish to just "passively" block all the times you are in disadvantage, start working with evades, reversals, sabakis (Akira have all this); eventually some over and under attacks (Akira have some); also, you can abare when you expect throw.
If you get on slightly more advanced level, you can start doing fuzzy guard. On even more advanced level, you can start going for evade-cancels, what is pretty all-round defensive technique in FS.

Hope this helps a little

 

Many peeps agree that getting good with scarce BS char ie Jeff makes them better in VF & even all beat'em ups since there's no other way really to win but basic work, but sure he also can be played gimmicly in some ways. Everyone can, it's just hard to define exactly without clear examples (if even by then). If someone had turn-based feel with jeff, I'd more readily understand the "problem".

It's all matter of opinion, but Akira is imo far from being "no gimmicks" char. Sabakis, guard breaks and silly dmg from safe starters are just amazing. There was a time shakira really was tough to get into, but not anymore imo. Mastering is one thing, but shit like 13f DE, stupid 1P+K and general whiff punish options are just dogs bollocks. Akira is "a freighttrain that comes you at 220 mph", as one Akira veteran put it. Counting turns or not that's something to note.

I guess one should let the character really grow on you, but in a fruitful way. Having been a scrub since middle ages of VF, I know how important it was to get a grip on basic shit like P on block (+ smthing) -> instant elbow to check opponents reactions and if blocked fuzzy etc to pressure again, P -> perhaps throw or P ch for launcher fishing. Good cose game plan gets opponents more nervous than Pai 2KK spam since they have to really pay attention. That opens the room for experimentation and proper turn usage, ie low ch fishing and block freezes -> throw. The solidly desinged close range game which makes VF exciting for me I guess, and the adrenaline you sense when opponent has to adapt. This makes your turn borrowing more interesting.

 

You can't play completely abare-less, you would lose to throws. VF is all about smart abare and respect, and the best players are going to mix moral and abare play to win.

 

I think this is a good discussion, and feels even more relevant with two factors: Final Showdown and Online Play (Online play kind of encourages abare imho lol).

That said, I will take the position that while it is not easy, I believe you can play abare-less in VF5FS.

• You can limit the application of your movelist (basically cut the fatty excess of certain aggressive attacks from general/basic situations).
• You can rely on throw escapes to deal with throws, even if it's a 1 in 3 game (and you are fighting a thinking person, so you an try to understand that person's logic).
• If you are comfortable with throw escaping, you can also be comfortable with other options such as ETEG.
• Fuzzy guard, E-Fuzzy (aka ECDGTE), EDG, Side-Fuzzy, etc.... these are all defensive techniques that are moral (the point is these are moral elements, not that they break throws lol).
• You still have a spacing game.
• You still have a whiff punishing game.

So I am not saying it is necessarily easy. But I am saying that you can play an abare-less game and be very competitive--even at the top levels of play.

I am also not saying my game is abare-less, it is quite abare-full lol. But it is not the only way to play.

And I will say it is incredibly frustrating (and yet for me exhilirating too) to fight against a Moral-Master ^_^

FS rewards smart abare, but it also rewards good solid moral gameplay too.

That is my take anyways, and again, it is a great discussion to have about the state of Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown.

Edit: I should also add that I agree with what was mentioned above, mastering the moral style of play is a huge skill that is very strong in VF!

 

This is true. But I'm talking about the context of the rest of my post

I will continue to firmly believe that learning to play a textbook, no abare style against all characters is one of the best skills that you can have and is lacking in most western players, including myself.

If you rely on abareing yourself out even against players that have no clue how to play you will probably have a lot of problems dealing with some lesser players then you throughout your VF-playing career.

Of course, you will need to eventually have abare in your play even if you're an extreme moralist style player when you face really advanced competition.

 

Nice points dudes, but I'm having difficulties at understanding where the line between abare and moral play really goes. If I block to fish for etc launchers or lows for easy punishing, that's moral right? Is abare only attacking from disadvantage or also attacking in general in ??? situations?

Playing Shun a lot, he has no 14f mid to stop linear opponent cold after standing P on his block. Of course I have to "take a chance" since his slower mids are very cool. Is this abare or am I getting it too widely? I guess moral play is low risk play altogether?

 

moral is attack when you have positive frames and taking defensive actions when you have negative frames. Attacking to beat a throw is abare, evade throw failed evade guard canceling fuzzy easy throw escape to beat a throw is moral.