Goh anti-character discussion

Can anyone tell me some good strats against El Blaze?

 

I feel like I'm betraying Lion by posting this (and I'll probably end up reposting it as a vs Lion thread in the Lion section), but...

Lion's strongest throw is generally 6 (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) but...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif does almost as much damage alone. So 4 is also something to worry about as far as his throws.

If you can do two-throw escapes, I would do those two (6 and 4). But one solid throw escape with good guessing is better than two sloppy throw escapes.

Good thing to know about Lion is that his low punch is one-frame slower than everyone else's, but it has more reach. Just be aware that Lion might do low punch from mid-close range and backdash to bait you into doing something (he hopes you will whiff so he can punish you). This low punch situation is frustrating for Lion very up-close, but when he plays properly with range, it works out. Despite Lion's love of pokes, not being able to trust low punch up-close in neutral situations can be a little frustrating for him. His anti low attack moves also need a couple frames or at least some spacing for them to work too.

Because Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a Turn-Away attack and a good combo starter, it's a good abare move that will never clash with a throw. So don't be surprised if you're at +8 or something and Lion throws this at you if he thinks you'll throw. Of course, if your opponent shows no evidence that he will do this, then don't worry about it until he does. Furthermore, because it turns Lion backwards, it can be tough to punish him with a combo if you interrupt him out of this. I'm certain you can still back-throw Lion after the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and before the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Otherwise, if you block both, you have Nitaku since it's -9 for Lion.

I don't see Lion's sabaki that often these days compared to the past, but I'll write something on it here anyways. Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif sabaki will eat high punches, high kicks, mid kicks, sidekicks, and Knees and he will combo you. With Goh, you shouldn't worry too much about it as long as you're mixing in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or elbow attack (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if you want to be super aggressive), heck even low punch. Just make sure your flowcharts acknowledge the sabaki (again, this is easy).

If all you were doing on ukemi-okizeme was knee or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or things like that, I would sabaki you. And those are situations where a lot of people typically go for very few mixups at the below-high-level play. So keep your okizeme mixups open enough. And when my Lion is waking up, that's the situation where I'm more likely to successfully sabaki on reflex (so much fun knowing that you're capable of sabaki on reflex).

Make sure to punish sweeps if Lion does them. You don't want to give him the impression that he can get away with sweeps on you.

Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counterable in general (most of the time). Nowadays, it's uncommon for the spacing to cause a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to whiff--so take the guaranteed damage if you ever block this move (you're likely to see it during okizeme situations).

Lion's screwed if you block his low attacks, punish him right away for doing them so they don't become a threat (more common at low-mid level than high-level).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are all special high attacks. Discourage Lion from using the final punch attacks of the strings (you can only really encourage him by doing low punch--SO DO NOT LOW PUNCH!!!).

Outside of okizeme situations, I think you should be able to low punch Lion's forward moving stance on sight if you're fast enough. But I dunno, I still manage to get this stance (TRSF) working on EVERYONE I've played. Then again, I forgot to tell Yosuke to try to just low punch the stance on reflex (I realized this at the end of his trip to Portland, regretfully, and told him then).

If you see Lion's backstepping crouching stance (TRMF), don't go charging in, wait for him to get back up (it's a timed stance), and also know that his sweep option has crazy range (it'll sweep you at sidekick range, maybe more!). If he does the sweep, don't let him get away with it.

Don't even worry about his shuffle steps after a knee or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. All options are linear mid attack and he has to wait awhile if he wants to throw you. You figure his shuffling feet are telling you to ECD or something. I hope his Kanpo gets better in Version C... Beware of him doing just the one punch from Kanpo though, it'll result in him being back turned and he has a decent back-turned game.

Okay... I don't want to give away anymore Lion secrets now. This was painful, but I wrote all this and don't want to delete it

-Chanchai

 

Wolf players tend not to finish /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string because it's throw counterable and it's very easy to see

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is the ground throw and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is standup where nothing is guaranteed as far as i know. its basically just a guessing game from there on in.

just poke the crap out of wolf. if you're getting pressured try not to freeze up and just stand there and block, because you will get giant swing'ed!

 

Swung. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

lol i know. but giant swing is sort of like a noun in this wolf's case.. to me anyway. so i did that little 'ed

haha

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Just messing around. I like the sound of giant swing'ed better!

 

Revive thread!

Vanessa DS
In General /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
Edge to Vanessa's back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif
Edge to your back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif

Vanessa OS
In General /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif
Edge to Vanessa's Back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif

Jeffry
In General /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif (that order)
Edge behind Jeffry /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif... Cool note (for Jeffry), if he does Splash when near the edge and you escape, you're rung out regardless.
Edge behind you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif (that order)... Another cool note, based on what direction your back is facing, you might ring Jeffry out with an escape, or you get rung out anyway (see my Jeffry thread).

 

has some tips for anti-jeffry ?

my problems is, he has a long range, & 2nd is, when i got hit once by mistake (but if i defend i got thrown ^^) , i'm as good as dead. (i think it began with his knee)

 

At a distance, Jeff players like to use his sidekick, as not only does it have monster range, it also knocks down on any hit, making it a valuable pressure tool. Fortunately, it is linear and can be evaded to either side. Goh can also use his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif sabaki against it if you can tell it is coming.

If you guard it, Jeff is left at -11 frames disadvantage, which means that Goh only has a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string guaranteed (depending on range it was blocked it may or may not connect)

The knee is one of Jeff's signature moves and is as deadly as they come, as it can take away almost half your life(!) depending on the combo and type of hit.

Although Goh has a sabaki to counter knees with his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, against Jeffrey however, it can be considered high-risk low-reward, so use it at your own discretion. It is good to use it though, if you notice a distinct pattern with your Jeff player. For example, if they knee every single time one of their moves are blocked, you can use it in that situation.

For Jeff, the knee can be considered a medium-risk high-reward move to use, as he is left at -15 if blocked. In Goh's case, his guaranteed options after guarding it include: any of his throws (since all throws takes 12 frames to execute), /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into combos, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif to Backturned position and his backturned options.

Hope that helps a bit!

 

When fighting Jeffry and using sabaki you'll more than likely come across the troubles that are his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Why are they a problem? Both are 14i mids, one is an elbow (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif beat it) and the other is a knee (only /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif works). This mix up will hurt you if you rely on sabaki.

With that said, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can still be a very good tool against a Jeffry that uses /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif as a range closer, delays /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.../forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, likes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif setups (beat hit at the first hit), or beating anything else that is slow/telegraphing or predictable. Follow-up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif_:BK.

Punish everything with your best options.

<u>Jeffry</u>

Punish with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
---
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -11 (close range only)
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -11
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -13
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -13

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
---
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -15
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -15
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -15
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif -15
DM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -15

Whatever Goh's low 14i punisher is (just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?)
---
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -14
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -14

Almost whatever you want
---
RUNNING /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -66
BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

Remember, Jeffry needs to take a risk if he wants big damage, but his poke damage can still take its toll (and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is one hell of a poke).

It boils to down to the same strategies for beating all characters: find a bad habit.

The Jeffry abare (attacks from disadvantage)? Use a quick move until they stop trying to attack. Throw them then.

To defensive? Goh has awesome throws.

Predictable /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/etc? Counter it.

Remember, Jeffry is also very linear, but almost always step to his stomach. It is better to eat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Seriously.

Break /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif in that order. Remember to mix in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif when a wall or edge is behind him.

If you're crumpled and your head is facing the edge of the ring or the wall: BREAK /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif (or you're rung out)!

Etc.

 

OT
Does anyone actually do this? Even in ver C, Jeff /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif../forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif feels like it allows maybe 4 frames of delay at most.
/OT

 

OT?

I landed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif *slight pause* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif a few times.

Conditioning helps.