Goh Okizeme

Personally, I have trouble with Goh's okizeme. I wish he had just one mid full or half crescent that isn't his evade attack.

 

Re: Virtua Fight 5 - Version C Revisions

When the opponent doesn't kick from rising I try for his catch throw. If they duck it, low throw.

But, yeah he is limited a bit move wise, but what he has is really good.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is great (I need to stop attacking after it hits: -1!), shrm eats /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif evades highs and throws and kills /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif gives great advantage, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif is an awesome 11i punisher, and his backturned game in nothing short of godly and easy.

He's fine without full/half circ mids.

 

Re: Virtua Fight 5 - Version C Revisions

Not so much anymore. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

Re: Virtua Fight 5 - Version C Revisions

We should probably be discussing this in the Goh section, but honestly (and no offense to Myke), these sections make discussion more difficult, not less.

Anyway, the specific problem I am having with okizeme is against a mid level player who will upon knockdown do one of five things:

1) Stand block
2) Crouch block
3) Evade
4) Attack
5) Crouch attack

Goh has something to defeat each of these options and throw will defeat two of them (1) and (3) and a mid attack would defeat three (2), (4) and (5).

But a mid circular would defeat four of them (2), (3), (4) and (5). That would be nice.

I can't off the top of my head think of any other character who does not have a mid circular or half circular.

 

A mid circular would also probably be counterable as fuck so it's not just about winning the situation.

It's ok to do a wrong guess with Goh also since he has sabakitools and awesome RN with 9k+g just in case (9k+g pk4 needs damage reduction imo). His stats are nothing short of amazing on some things... 66k can be fuzzied after @-5, 6k isn't counterable (incredibly damage on MC) and if you want to play it safe you can do 3k hoping for MC (-6 fuzzy) or 3p (-4) hoping for stagger etc. If you do a decent combo and dash in his tr trap will win against a lot of the scenarios you described (save crouchguard) and is only -6 on guard. Pai's is punishable to hell and back in comparison (-40). I still wouldn't go for it a lot even though it looks good on paper. Mix up delay throws, delayattacks and safe moves in okizeme (and crouchthrow against someone who delays rising) is the way to go imo. To be a good Goh user you must get comfortable with delay's - you'll never hit something like 3k+g otherwise.

 

Myke, the only reason I think it makes discussion more difficult is because quite honestly, I don't think we have a large enough population to warrant so much separation of topics. Furthermore, I'm generally interested in lots of characters, so if there's a topic on the front page about, say Lau, I might read it, but if I have to dive into Lau's section for Lau only threads, I might not be interested enough. It's the difference between semi-passive observation / discussion and active, agressive discussion. While I would agree that the latter will produce better content, due to the small population of this site, I'm guessing the former will encourage more participation just cause it is easier.

Anyway, back to Goh.

Nope, I totally disagree. Winning the situation is far more important than any possible thing and having a single move that can beat 80% of the opponent's options is one of the best tools you can possibly have.

Also, mid circulars aren't necessarily "counterable as fuck". Half circulars are almost never counterable (Lau 66pk, Akira 46pk, Blaze 66k, Kage's 4k or his 2kg, Jeff's 4kp, Lion's 8k, etc., etc., etc.). Some full circulars aren't counterable either (Vane 66k, Pai's max charge 3pk) though they take some time to start up. But again, we are talking about okizeme here. We have time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's ok to do a wrong guess with Goh also since he has sabakitools and awesome RN with 9k+g just in case (9k+g pk4 needs damage reduction imo).</div></div>

I don't see why it's anymore ok for Goh to guess wrong than any other character. All characters can do EDTEG. The point is how often Goh wins the exchange (e.g. winning the match), not how easily he can recover from a lost exchange (e.g. saving yourself from losing). Even if Goh has tons of sabaki tools, each of them are very specific and only defeats something like 20% of situations (e.g. 9kg only defeats throws, it loses to high, mid and even low attacks, evades and block). I don't know why people continue to think this is such a great move. It's incredibly situational. And the pk4 can be blocked if you struggle fast enough (unless it's a counter, in which case I would argue that the damage is totally appropriate).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His stats are nothing short of amazing on some things... 66k can be fuzzied after @-5, 6k isn't counterable (incredibly damage on MC) and if you want to play it safe you can do 3k hoping for MC (-6 fuzzy) or 3p (-4) hoping for stagger etc.</div></div>

These are all execellent tools, I agree. But you're still missing my point. Goh absolutely must guess correctly on these or he will be punished. A successful evade on any of the above moves means a 60-80 pt float combo or throw. However Goh can only get big damage on these if he gets MC. Not a good gamble in my opinion (unless of course you yomi your opponent very well).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you do a decent combo and dash in his tr trap will win against a lot of the scenarios you described (save crouchguard) and is only -6 on guard.</div></div>

Are you talking about 2kg? 2kg defeats only one scenario -> evade in the right direction. It is almost never guarded because it whiffs so easily, which means Goh is eating a huge damage combo. Which other situation do you think it defeats? The only time 2(8)kg is useful is against an edge / wall where the opponent has a strong incentive to tech roll a certain way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Pai's is punishable to hell and back in comparison (-40).</div></div>

I agree Pai's 2(8)pk sucks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still wouldn't go for it a lot even though it looks good on paper. Mix up delay throws, delayattacks and safe moves in okizeme (and crouchthrow against someone who delays rising) is the way to go imo. To be a good Goh user you must get comfortable with delay's - you'll never hit something like 3k+g otherwise. </div></div>

I have no problems with delays but I still think you haven't understood my point.

Goh is the only character that has what I would consider really terrible okizeme. He's got great other tools, but it's hard to keep pressure on an opponent with him. As such, I don't think he's "airtight" like Sebo was saying. I think he's great, but he's still got lots of weaknesses (including distancing for example).

Having weaknesses is not a bad thing necessarily, as it gives a character flavor. But Goh's weak okizeme has always been a sore point for me.

 

If so, why don't Jacky's use 46k+g as the MAIN move in Okizeme if it "wins" against so many options? Besides, yes they are. I said *circular* not *semicircular* so you bringing up points after that about semicirculars are mute.

If you don't see the difference between a -5 and a -7 situation in VF (where you ETE) you aren't really grasping the system. A fuzzy situation > ETE situation so hard it's silly. And yes, having one of the best anticlash moves in the game and sabaki tools does count. I think it's weird you don't see how awesome 9k+g is btw. Even on block, 62dmg normalhit and (great) guessinggame with pk4 (hit BT p+k after and you've basicly won the round with a correct guess). Turn around 3/4 throw (buffer it from BT) = 100dmg etc.

What's new on having to guess right in VF? No, he won't eat a 60-80 damage move. This isn't evo. How do you get 60-80p damage on someone doing an elbowspeed move like 3p (which is +7!!!! on MC giving "real nitaku" which is an absolute luxury) in oki adv? Learn to TE against throws when you're evaded (this isn't something particular for Goh). You're trying to make out some sort of commonplace situation that in VF the rule of thumb is to use semicirculars in Okizeme. It isn't. Do you really think it is? Besides, a move like 6pp would track someone doing DM > attack if you're afraid of that. Another luxury he has is a catchthrow that does 68 (count it) damage against LW's etc.

Here's the thing about somewhat highlevel VF; You'll never land big moves in Okizeme unless you catch someone being agressive (and you have frameadv) or in a DM, they'll just get guarded by someone doing delayed rising or movement. Oki is about small moves with good stats, delayed launchers and throws.

Just on the basis of having a crouchthrow and a catchthrow he wouldn't have "terrible okizeme". Add to that one of the best throwgames standing in the game, great elbow, overall safe attacks save 33p, one of the best MC (if not THE best) CH tools in the game with 6k, moves that track like 6pp, all purpose moves like shldrm (safe) etc, TR trap (talk about a good semicircular in oki???), 46p & 46k+g against midreversals etc, I totally not agree. I don't think moves like 66k+g hitthrow are really bad for being semicirculars either even if it's high. Not even k+g as a full circular either (hit someone being aggressive and you can threathen with knee after, normalhit>shldrm/43p+k/2p/backdash attack, guarded>fuzzy etc). Btw, he's got one of the best rangegames in the game imo so you finishing of with that being another weakness he has is somewhat fitting.

It's clear that we don't agree on this, I really think he has one of the best okigames and rangegames there is.

Peace out.

 

Wait a second, are we talking about the same game here?

High level Jacky players DO use 46kg as one of, if not THE main okizeme move. Because Jacky has 46kg, he effectively has a nitaku against wakeup (throw or 46kg, which knocks down for another nitaku) as opposed to a santaku, yontaku or gotaku.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Besides, yes they are. I said *circular* not *semicircular* so you bringing up points after that about semicirculars are mute. </div></div>

Then you weren't responding very well to my post, were you? I specifically mention that I would like Goh to have a mid circular or half circular. I also specifically state that Goh is the ONLY character that does not have any mid circulars / half circulars.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand why any of the above has anything to do with Goh's sabaki tools or RN tools. Goh can use an anti sabaki in either a -5 or -7, just as any character can use ETE at -5 through -9/-10. So why is Goh advantaged again?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And yes, having one of the best anticlash moves in the game and sabaki tools does count. I think it's weird you don't see how awesome 9k+g is btw. Even on block, 62dmg normalhit</div></div>

The move is a very slow startup (27 frames) high attack. You shouldn't be blocking it and even if you do it leaves you at even frames. Also, like I said earlier, you can struggle out of the pk on normal hit so the damage is not 62. Please compare this to Akira's overhead double palm at 23 frames execution, mid, +3 advantage on block and HUGE combo damage on normal hit. I think you are clearly mistaken on this move.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and (great) guessinggame with pk4 (hit BT p+k after and you've basicly won the round with a correct guess). Turn around 3/4 throw (buffer it from BT) = 100dmg etc.</div></div>

I agree Goh's BT game is great, but it can be easily fuzzied by a defensive player.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's new on having to guess right in VF?</div></div>

I can't believe you're still missing my entire point. Guessing right for Goh in an Okizeme situation is most of the times a 4taku or 5taku. For Jacky and other players with mid circulars, guessing right is a 2taku or at worst (for half circulars) a 3taku. There's nothing "new" about it. I'm simply stating that guessing right for Goh is more difficult.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, he won't eat a 60-80 damage move. This isn't evo. How do you get 60-80p damage on someone doing an elbowspeed move like 3p </div></div>

An evade grants float combo or throw = 60 - 80pts of damage. Please try to remember what are we talking about here: circulars. What are circulars for? Punishing evades.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're trying to make out some sort of commonplace situation that in VF the rule of thumb is to use semicirculars in Okizeme. It isn't. Do you really think it is?</div></div>

When you say something like this, I don't know how to respond to you. All high level Akira players will in every match use 46pk against Okizeme at least once per match, just as all Lau players will use 66pk, just as all Lion players will use 8k or 6kg or Sarah players will use 8k or Shun players will use kg against Oki. I don't know how to discuss this game with you if you dont think semi circulars against Oki are a staple of the game since evades were introduced.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Besides, a move like 6pp would track someone doing DM > attack if you're afraid of that.</div></div>

No it doesn't. It's not reliable at all.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Another luxury he has is a catchthrow that does 68 (count it) damage against LW's etc.</div></div>

Catch throw only beats two options out of five. That leaves you with 3 others, making it a 4taku. He can still beat you with three other options, crouch, attack and low attack.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the thing about somewhat highlevel VF; You'll never land big moves in Okizeme unless you catch someone being agressive (and you have frameadv) or in a DM, they'll just get guarded by someone doing delayed rising or movement. Oki is about small moves with good stats, delayed launchers and throws.</div></div>

I think maybe one of the things that is making this discussion difficult is perhaps our different understanding of oki. Okizeme to me, means exactly that, attacking a grounded opponent who is getting up. That means both from the ground and from knockdowns / tech rolls. You can get huge damage combos off of tech roll okizeme (and even from grounded okizeme if you time the knee right). Anyway, I don't see why you think okizeme only lets you land "little" moves. A Jacky gut punch from slide step can lead to a 60pt combo and that is used in oki all the time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just on the basis of having a crouchthrow and a catchthrow he wouldn't have "terrible okizeme".</div></div>

I still don't see why reducing a 5taku game into a 4taku or 3taku through catchthrow or low throw saves his oki game. Please explain with concrete details.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Add to that one of the best throwgames standing in the game, great elbow, overall safe attacks save 33p, one of the best MC (if not THE best) CH tools in the game with 6k, moves that track like 6pp, all purpose moves like shldrm (safe) etc,</div></div>

All these are true but have nothing to do with oki.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> TR trap (talk about a good semicircular in oki???),</div></div>

Please clarify why his TR trap is good.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">46k+g against midreversals etc, </div></div>

Clearly you are not a Goh player.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally not agree. I don't think moves like 66k+g hitthrow are really bad for being semicirculars either even if it's high. Not even k+g as a full circular either (hit someone being aggressive and you can threathen with knee after, </div></div>

kg gives +1 on normal hit. I don't know how you intend to threaten with knee on a +1.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">normalhit>shldrm/43p+k/2p/backdash attack, guarded>fuzzy etc). Btw, he's got one of the best rangegames in the game imo so you finishing of with that being another weakness he has is somewhat fitting.

It's clear that we don't agree on this, I really think he has one of the best okigames and rangegames there is.

Peace out. </div></div>

You think Goh has one of the best range games? I cannot help but laugh.

So you think his range game is on par with:
Jacky's shuffle, slide, 4kg, etc.
Kage's 66kgp, 2kg, 46pk,p, 9kg, 4kg, etc.
Lau's 66k, 9kg, 9k, 33p, 44p, etc.
Lion's 6kg, his flying kicks, 3k, etc.
Lei's haishiki pk, 33pp, doku p or all the other various long distance punches from stances
Shun's 2_4p, 3pp, 66pk (after drinks), etc.
Jeff's 3k, 66k, 43pp, 3kg, etc.
Do I need to list every character?
Aoi's fast charging elbows, her hopping knee, etc.
Vanessa's full circular, her charging punches, etc.
Akira's elbows, dblpm, 46pk, etc.?

Every character clearly has a better range game than Goh. Perhaps the one character who has an equally shitty range game might be Wolf, but honestly, I wouldn't know as I don't play him. Wolf's got some range tools but they are very punishable. Goh has one great range tool (66k) and one mediocre one (66p). But both are far worse than Aki's 666p, Vane's 44kg.

Please give tell me why you think Goh has a good range game. I'd be interested to know.