H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Seeing as Wolf and Jeffery are, in my opinion, the two most similar characters to each other (except maybe the Chan family), I would like to see a discussion on how they differ. A comparison of their strengths, weaknesses, how they fight differently, how they are controlled differently, how you fight against them differently, et cetera. Also, if you have a strong preference towards one, and have a reason to back it up, please also chime in. Thank you.

 

Welcome to the forum.

In this instance I can only really give a perspective from playing against them. Both are equally “powerhouses†in my opinion. Both are relatively slow in movement speed in comparison to the other characters. Yet, if Jeffry throws or hits you…you’ll feel it. If Wolf hits or, especially; throws you…you’ll feel that too. However, where they differ is in their specialisations.

Jeffry is a “Strikerâ€Â: His prime form of attack is through brutal combos and strong single strikes. He’s at his best when he’s on the offensive. He has a strong throw game; with commands that aren’t easy to escape from regularly and is able to use low throws too. Yet they’re more of a “spice†with which to pepper your game play with from time to time rather than necessities.

Yet Jeffry can be played without administering a single throw as blow for blow he hits the hardest and can chain together some devastating attacks.

Wolf is a “Grapplerâ€Â: His meat and veg (core method/basics) are throws and getting his opponent into a position where he can throw them. Though he also possesses some powerful attacks he’s not built for combos like Jeffry and if a Wolf player isn’t throwing you then he isn’t fulfilling his potential.

Wolf’s game also lends itself to being slower, more methodical in my opinion; bidding your time till your opponent screws up so that you can punish them with a tremendous throw. Though, that’s not to say that you can’t be in the face of your opponent (that’s the beauty of the VF series) too. But a smart Wolf player will always be on the hunt for an opportunity to throw.

By the nature of counter attacking and observing your opponent for openings in their defence, I’d consider Wolf to be the more technical and sophisticated of the two. He certainly has more technical commands in the form of reversals and far more effective throws with superior situational results.

Still, you don’t want to be in a corner at a disadvantage against Jeffry; you’ll get mauled more often than not.

Against either one of them you have to be careful not to be too careless as their forms of punishing opponents, especially Wolf’s are severe. Faster, combo orientated character’s need to chip and poke at them, utilising their speed, agility or both to out manoeuvre them and keep them on the defensive. Though that’s harder with Jeffry in my opinion as he can give as good as he gets and then some when it comes to strikes, yet he needs to do so far less in ratio to the other smaller characters.

More defensive, usually throw based characters may have a harder time than strike based fighters as they too rely on capitalising on errors and since Wolf and Jeffry need to hit less, they’re less likely to put themselves out in theory. In this instance, what speed advantages these characters have, Goh and Aoi especially, should be maximised.

When Jeffry and Wolf fight each other, to me it’s like a distilled version of VF: On one side you have the grappler in Wolf; he can’t out damage Jeffry blow for blow with combos so he has to focus on making the most of Jeffry’s slow moving nature and catch him out with a well placed throw. Jeffry on the other hand must be careful not to get carried away with his strikes as he’s not fast enough to jump in an out of Wolf’s throw range, but Wolf’s stature being almost equal to his makes him an easier target to hit.

Now, saying all that, the simple answer is that one is better at throwing while the other is just as strong at hitting. Players will gravitate to either character based on their preference for being the strongest in their respective fields. But ultimately it’s the player who decides who's more effective and that can change with each one.

It’ll always be a matter of taste in my opinion. Though I appreciate them both I’m indifferent to either of them.

 

To be honest I don't think they're that similar besides strong throw games, being heavy's, and slow jabs.

But uhh, let's see, wolf has a decent mid poke in , whereas jeff's puts him at -10 albeit your opponent has to guess whether you'll continue the string.

Unlike wolf, not every damn move of jeff's is throw counterable. What I mean is jeff can throw out + relatively early with little consequence, and very decent damage potential. Wolf doesn't really have a move like this other than maybe at max range.

Jeffry actually has a usable full circular in .

 

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Adio said:

Yet Jeffry can be played without administering a single throw as blow for blow he hits the hardest and can chain together some devastating attacks.



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No character in VF can be played without using throws...unless you played against someone who tap ppp all the way...

 

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Adio said:

Wolf is a “Grapplerâ€Â: His meat and veg (core method/basics) are throws and getting his opponent into a position where he can throw them. Though he also possesses some powerful attacks he’s not built for combos like Jeffry and if a Wolf player isn’t throwing you then he isn’t fulfilling his potential.

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Wolf deals as much damage combo wise as many other characters. SS, , and are just some of the most useful and combo potent tools that Wolf has. He doesn't need to even combo to deal big damage with moves like + hit throw. While capitalizing on whiffs with throws is one of the strengths of Wolf, it's ridiculous, like DeLune said, for ANY character to not look for such opportunities at all times, especially Jeffry.

I think it would be a good idea maybe to lurk the forums some more and get some experience with the game before giving advice or analysis.

 

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Srider said:

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Adio said:

Wolf is a “Grapplerâ€Â: His meat and veg (core method/basics) are throws and getting his opponent into a position where he can throw them. Though he also possesses some powerful attacks he’s not built for combos like Jeffry and if a Wolf player isn’t throwing you then he isn’t fulfilling his potential.

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Wolf deals as much damage combo wise as many other characters. SS, , and are just some of the most useful and combo potent tools that Wolf has. He doesn't need to even combo to deal big damage with moves like + hit throw. While capitalizing on whiffs with throws is one of the strengths of Wolf, it's ridiculous, like DeLune said, for ANY character to not look for such opportunities at all times, especially Jeffry.

I think it would be a good idea maybe to lurk the forums some more and get some experience with the game before giving advice or analysis.

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Adio said:

In this instance I can only really give a perspective from playing against them.

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/versus/images/graemlins/deadpan.gif /versus/images/graemlins/indifferent.gif

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Jeffry is a very easy character to play in the sense that his combos are straightforward and his strategy basic. His game is high damage, good distance attacks. You have to take risks with Jeffry though. His throw game is NOT top-tier...it's average to slightly above average in VF4.

Wolf is a more technical character. Wolf, along with Kage, has the best throws in the game and he can still take off tons of damage with his attacks. Wolf is a character built for guessing games. If you know exactly what the opponent is going to do, all the time, Wolf is probably your best character.

Bottom line, the characters' backgrounds match pretty well with how they play. Jeffry is a power fighter, Wolf is a wrestler.

 

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Srider said:

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Adio said:

Wolf is a “Grapplerâ€Â: His meat and veg (core method/basics) are throws and getting his opponent into a position where he can throw them. Though he also possesses some powerful attacks he’s not built for combos like Jeffry and if a Wolf player isn’t throwing you then he isn’t fulfilling his potential.

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Wolf deals as much damage combo wise as many other characters. SS, , and are just some of the most useful and combo potent tools that Wolf has. He doesn't need to even combo to deal big damage with moves like + hit throw. While capitalizing on whiffs with throws is one of the strengths of Wolf, it's ridiculous, like DeLune said, for ANY character to not look for such opportunities at all times, especially Jeffry.

I think it would be a good idea maybe to lurk the forums some more and get some experience with the game before giving advice or analysis.

[/ QUOTE ] Ouch he's been here regged longer than you.

 

Actually, no I'm not regged longer than Adio.

 

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vanity said:

Ouch he's been here regged longer than you.

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I'm going to pick on you now. It's possible that I could lurk (research) more in a month than someone else who's been registered for three years. I don't think registration date has much to do with it.

 

Personally, speaking from MY experience fighting against either one:
-Wolf is faster than Jeffry.
-I can evade and counter-attack Jeffry's moves easier than Wolf's.
-Wolf has unblockables and his head-game-tactics catch me offguard way more often than Jeffry's.
-Jeffry's hits are stronger and he has more combos/ Wolf's throws do more damage.

I dont know why but Jeffry has never really given me problems,I know there's some Jeffry players out there who would love to show me a thing or two just for that statement, but that's just from my experience, maybe I'll change my tune when I get my ass kicked by a Jeffry player until then, Wolf is way more of a threat to me (no pun intended) /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

I'm sorry, but telling someone who's been here for 4 years and 1000 posts to "do some more research on the game and stop giving advice" is just funny.

when adio was giving his answer he was obviously just trying to simplify things. then we have srider telling him to go back to lurking (stop posting), that's just funny.

(and if it wasn't clear enough, yeah srider, that was my point)

 

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vanity said:

I'm sorry, but telling someone who's been here for 4 years and 1000 posts to "do some more research on the game and stop giving advice" is just funny.


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I don't think post count matters all that much, either (I'm not talking about anyone in particular).

 

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Srider said:

Wolf deals as much damage combo wise as many other characters. SS, , and are just some of the most useful and combo potent tools that Wolf has. He doesn't need to even combo to deal big damage with moves like + hit throw. While capitalizing on whiffs with throws is one of the strengths of Wolf, it's ridiculous, like DeLune said, for ANY character to not look for such opportunities at all times, especially Jeffry.

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Strider, seeing as you are a Wolf player, and you apperantly disagree with adio, what is your take on the differences between the 2?

 

There are as many differences between wolf and jeffery as there are between every other character.

that is the long answer.

 

read ice-9's post~ it's pretty much in a nut shell.


i'll break this down~

jeffry has a simplistic tech game.
jeffry is better at poking
jeffry is alround safer and better at spacing setups
jeffry is a powerhouse in combos and flow charts
jeffry has tooo many launchers from fast to slow..
jeffry can pressure block better.
jeffry gets a safer long distance game.
jeffry can punish better at garanteed elbow / knee situations.


wolf is better at oki, he gets a half curcular low sweep / mid
wolf is better at disadvantage.
wolf can pressure low P
wolf can throw at longer range (which is less useful than it sounds)
wolf can throw out Short shoulder to break up pressure.
wolf is better near the wall
wolf's P,,K ~ followup is probably the best in the game.
wolf is more technical.


i dont get this "wolf has a strong throw game- so rely on throwing BS" ~ he has 3 main directions. having damaging throws doesnt change the fact that throwing is always a low teir option. even in advantage inwhich case you could never base your game around throwing.... never~!!

the best way you could ever have a "strong throw game" is if you A) have stonger opportunities to throw within setups. or B) multiply the choice range in guaranteed situations, so you get 4 main directions like kage, goh and aoi. ~

 

First of all, I don't disagree for the most part about Adio's post. I only pointed out certain key inaccuracies that I thought should be corrected. What I don't understand is that if the info/analysis was given not based on actual experience and even claimed as such, why bother to defend it... Anyways...

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BK__ said:

read ice-9's post~ it's pretty much in a nut shell.


i'll break this down~

jeffry has a simplistic tech game.
jeffry is better at poking
jeffry is alround safer and better at spacing setups
jeffry is a powerhouse in combos and flow charts
jeffry has tooo many launchers from fast to slow..
jeffry can pressure block better.
jeffry gets a safer long distance game.
jeffry can punish better at garanteed elbow / knee situations.


wolf is better at oki, he gets a half curcular low sweep / mid
wolf is better at disadvantage.
wolf can pressure low P
wolf can throw at longer range (which is less useful than it sounds)
wolf can throw out Short shoulder to break up pressure.
wolf is better near the wall
wolf's P,,K ~ followup is probably the best in the game.
wolf is more technical.


i dont get this "wolf has a strong throw game- so rely on throwing BS" ~ he has 3 main directions. having damaging throws doesnt change the fact that throwing is always a low teir option. even in advantage inwhich case you could never base your game around throwing.... never~!!

the best way you could ever have a "strong throw game" is if you A) have stonger opportunities to throw within setups. or B) multiply the choice range in guaranteed situations, so you get 4 main directions like kage, goh and aoi. ~

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You are getting at the heart of the issue. In terms of directions, Jeffry has more options than Wolf. I also have to disagree with the notion that Wolf is better/stronger at walls. When close to the wall, Jeffry has options both facing the wall and with back to the wall. Wolf on the other hand, does not have that luxury. Although Wolf has high damaging throws, against a good mteg player, it's harder to deal dmg i n general because if you give up your throw options, wolf doesn't have nearly as many tools for strike based dmg. Jeffry has the luxury of beating mteg play by both more throw directions and also his full arsenal of delayable strings and different tools.

Such tools as , , + hit throw, + gives Jeffry much more options on oki than wolf, all of them granting combo opportunities. I'm not including moves common to both characters like and the such.

Wolf, aside from throwing (something that Jeffry can also do), must rely on +, , and arguably SS, but we can nullify that option if we include Jeffry's knee, and it's even faster exe than SS.

Wolf definitely lose out in the oki department. The low lariat is 20 dmg only, and yes it does set up more oki if the opponent CHOOSES to TR, but a move like Jeffry's + is much better because it forces the opponent to play Jeff's game even on normal hit.

With regard to Adio's previous statement about Jeffry can win without using a throw. Well you obviously do see matches maybe with all characters at one time or another winning matches without landing a throw. It can't be concluded from that result that throws are not needed to win a match. Especially in the case of Jeffry, if you take away the element and the threat of throws like splash mountain and backbreaker, you can just block high all the time since Jeffry lacks a fast knockdown low attack. Because Jeffry's throws can pose such a big threat, arguably just as good if not better than wolf's dmg wise when you take into account the potential follow up dmg from down attack (better than wolf's) and +, it is why his oki game and delayable mid strings can be so effective.

The strength of Wolf is very similar to Jeffry's in that he also poses a huge threat from throws, but the situations in which wolf can actually land a throw is very hard to come by. Given his lack of strike variations, and weak tools to beat eteg, taking away wolf's throw game is something very achievable. So when we talk about throw game with wolf, yes he is reliant on his throws, but that doesn't mean it's easier than other characters to actually land the throws. Someone playing a jeffry player needs to look out on both sides of the strike/throw game, against a wolf player you are mostly concerned about escaping his throws. This fact alone makes Wolf the more technical character, of which we are in agreement, because as a wolf player, there is a higher emphasis on making the correct guess and having good timing+execution. Where as other characters can use different things to rescue certain bad guesses, a wolf player will not have that luxury, and this often will promote a more defensive play, since a human can not make perfect guesses. You sometimes do see wolf players such as 8 or hideo playing a very aggressive style due to their superior experience and yomi skills, but that kind of play is reserved for players of that caliber. I do have to also point out that Wolf has a slightly longer throw range under certain circumstances, and that is a very very small advantage. Moves that knock back on block like Vanessa's are easily punishable by Wolf with a throw where as the timing is more demanding for other characters. This is not a very big advantage due to the fact that there is only one direction that the opponent have to worry about. This does provide a bit of a threat to maybe cause the opponent to make mistakes if the wolf player is able to utilize this threat. Like BK said, it's less useful than it sounds.

So that's what I think how these two characters stack up, I'm not as knowledgeable on Jeffry so I focused more on Wolf. I would gladly accept corrections on my mistakes from Jeffry players if I made any. There are a few other strengths of wolf but it's difficult to explain due to a lack of concrete examples, so they are not included here.

 

I forgot to compared Jeffry's with Wolf's Screwhook...

Wolf's screwhook loses to lp in open stance (if i can remember correctly...) Jeffry's doesn't. The command is also much longer. I think it's clear which one is better.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

First I'm going to assume that we're talking Evo not FT.

BK:

Wolf has a better throw game than Jeffry because they both have 3 directions that lead to direct damage, except Wolf's take a heckuva lot more damage. 80, 70 pts, and 65 pts versus 70, 65, and 45 pts. Jeffry's 65 pts throw is not even comparable given that the motion is very difficult to do in only 1 frame in a spontaneous, dynamic situation. His next best throw ending is 60 pts.

I strongly believe 3 is the magic number when it comes to throw directions in VF4 because a dodge/guard 2 throw escape is more common than a 3 throw escape. I prefer 3 highly damaging throws (Wolf) than 4 relatively weaker throws (Aoi).

Srider mentioned Jeffry's + as being a plus for Jeffry's throw game...but Jeffry takes risks when he goes for the butt stomp and can receive as much damage if the opponent knows what to do and guesses right.

Also, Jeffry is a horrible poking character. Almost every useful long-distance attack is throw counterable (, +, , etc.). Pai, Lau, Jacky, etc. are poking characters...Jeffry, no.


Srider:

I don't know why you think Jeffry is better with the wall than Wolf. Why do you say this? I think the wall is equally friendly to Jeffry and Wolf.

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Although Wolf has high damaging throws, against a good mteg player, it's harder to deal dmg i n general because if you give up your throw options, wolf doesn't have nearly as many tools for strike based dmg.

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You don't need many, you just need one or two that are very effective. Wolf has TKS which will always give you ~65 points (comparable to a non-MC knee), which is very fast and safe on block, or his various catch throws. And SS...dude, SS is only -12 frames on block, avoids a lot of attacks, and floats for a near-automatic 70-80 point combo. Wolf is VERY effective dealing against MTEG players.

On this point, Wolf and Jeffry are on par.

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Given his lack of strike variations, and weak tools to beat eteg, taking away wolf's throw game is something very achievable.

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In Evo, Wolf has trouble convincing the opponent to block at long-dstance because Wolf doesn't have many good long-distance attacks. Wolf has to get within throw range to be effective--this is his game. But once he's in throw range...Wolf has no problem getting the nitaku game going. He has so many good tools: screw hook, TKS, knee, SS.

Jeffry's advantage against Wolf is that Jeffry does have good long-distance attacks, but the difference in throws matter a lot. Most people only escape two throw directions reliably, and against Jeffry as long as you take care of and you're fine. Against Wolf? 80, 70, 65 pts--pick your poison. The above is precisely why Wolf and Jeffry compare well in terms of overall effectiveness (even though most tiers I've heard of place Jeffry lower than Wolf).

The difference is that Jeffry has better distance while Wolf has better throws. The former is a power fighter, the latter is a wrestler.

P.S. Dude...you can't compare Jeffry's + with Wolf's +. The former is fast, short distance, and leaves Jeffry on disadvantage at normal hit. The latter is half-circular and knocks down. Both are unsafe. I think Jeffry is a better oki character though...one of the best in the game.

P.P.S. Of course in FT Wolf is given a long-distance, safe sidekick that staggers, AND his throw game gets even better. 80, 75, and 70 pts, and now two directions for long-distance throws.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

well that just saved me from writing a long-ass post atleast`~

i will only say these things.~

A) i didnt compare wolf's throw game to jeff's

i said "why would you create a game plan around throwing"

high damage means your reward is greater, but that doesnt change
the way throws in VF are played. esentially, you cannot go
for throw much more often just because it's higher damage,
it's not anymore strengthened in that respect.

also, direction inputs are certainly an issue. if you guess 3 throw
ecapes vs kage, then eat 2 throws in a row, you take more damage
than one throw from wolf, and suddenly you are more pressured vs
throws. but against a wolf, i find that eating a throw is more often down to
bad input, not wrong guess.


it's ridiculous, if you face a character like lei fei and pai,
throwing isnt your best friend at all. which is why im just trying
to say "wolf isnt reliant on throws" or atleast my own wolf game
is more based around evade trapping and low P pressure.

although throws are an essenstial part of any character, and wolf gets
big reward, throwing comes underneath one subject. the way is see it,
is if u take away wolf's throws, you break VF you dont break wolf.
there's a difference.

but in all fairness, i do agree why it gives wolf
some sort of "greatness". and i wouldnt have
it taken away ofcourse.



:B) emphisise wolf is better against the wall.

db+p+g from a distance= garanteed f+p ~ b+k+gk, pounce or reverse hammer.
db+p+g close range = low sweep (garanteed pounce), throw or mid choice game, same as jeff
but jeff doesnt have a better low option.


wolf facing the wall is better than jeff by a long shot,
wolf gets PPP, jeff doesnt have that string, so on a lower float, jeff can do nothing
but pounce or ground hit