H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Yeah, I was talking about evo, not FT. Wolf is definitely a bit better in FT, we both agree there.

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ice-9 said:
Srider mentioned Jeffry's uK+G as being a plus for Jeffry's throw game...but Jeffry takes risks when he goes for the butt stomp and can receive as much damage if the opponent knows what to do and guesses right.
...
Also, Jeffry is a horrible poking character. Almost every useful long-distance attack is throw counterable


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I think in the end, Wolf and Jeffry are both horrible poke character, that I do agree with. I merely pointed out in my previous post that even in this department, Wolf is much more disadvantaged here as well. I am in no way saying Jeffry is a good poking character, I'm just saying that Jeffry has much more useful tools compared to Wolf. Even the examples you gave regarding wolf, such as his knee, screwhook, tks, are all throwable on guard for wolf as well. The only thing different between wolf and jeffry is that most of jeffry's tools either have canned followups or leaves him in better situations than wolf.

I think BK put it the best.
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BK__ said:
direction inputs are certainly an issue. if you guess 3 throw
ecapes vs kage, then eat 2 throws in a row, you take more damage
than one throw from wolf,


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This is a very important point because Jeffry's movelist allows him to pressure with strikes, and even when they are blocked, it forces nitaku game. Both characters have to take risks, but with Wolf, you have one chance only. This is why I believe Jeffry's game is much more balanced and potent than Wolf. He can create more situations for throws than wolf, thus granting him a better throw game.

In regards to wall dmg. We all know that both Wolf and Jeffry are very strong facing away from the wall due to their throw. When they are facing the wall however, yes wolf has , but that requires a launcher, and wolf can not use a throw in place of a launcher. Jeffry on the other hand can launch and go with at the same distance wolf and granting either butt stomp or pickup (something that wolf does not get with ), and up close he has the added option of + given the correct angle, and in FT, he doesn't have to worry about angle. This is why Jeffry poses a larger threat near the walls from my perspective, although they are both potent, just that Jeffry is a step up in terms of available options. If anything, I can accept the argument that they are equal, but wolf is definitely not stronger.

I am definitely going to disagree with the idea that Wolf is just as good in dealing with eteg as jeffry. I think it's clear from my previous post the vast amount of tools that Jeffry has over Wolf. Look at hell stab, +, , , etc.... and even his plethora of delayable strings if you want to count those. The only clarification needed is about Wolf's SS. While it is very good on block (at least in evo), it's long exe time makes it a very dangerous and difficult timing wise move, not good enough to be considered a reliable eteg stuffer if we can into account of the potential risks in an actual match. Jeffry has much more safer and reliable options than wolf's SS or . Please note that I am not saying Jeffry has it easy, I am merely saying that Jeffry's is a step up from Wolf. Although Wolf did improve in FT.

In the end, I can understand why you think wolf has good tools. If we look at pure damage and certain stats (actually many of jeffry's moves are much better stat wise), wolf does look very good based on those things alone. But like what I've quoted BK earlier, we simply can't consider those as the only factors that matters. This is also why I stated earlier that a good wolf player much strike with precision and make the hits count. If it's easy for wolf to do that, yes then we can base his potential based on damage alone. We know that's obviously not the case. Wolf can not take nearly as much risk strike wise than Jeffry due to his much small set of effective tools and his inability to get out of a bad guess. Wolf also can not create nearly as much opportunity than Jeffry in terms of nitaku game. He lacks a safe mid attack out of back dash, screwhook is stance dependent, the knee is one of his saving grace, although it's arguable how effective it actually is compared to other characters.

Definitely Wolf is much improved in FT, although still not as good compared to what we've seen of VF5. In evo, however, I definitely believe he is a very difficult character to be played well. Like what BK said, in evo Wolf cannot rely on his throw game, which can be said with any other character, but that takes away much of his advantage as a throw based character. He must work hard getting dmg from his throws by what BK said, evade trapping and lp pressure. Jeffry can do both of these with better tools, and more; although to be fair, it is more technical for Jeffry players in this department due to the amount of stance, input, and hit checking required.

I think in VF5 wolf players will finally be able to rejoice due to the new throw mechanics in VF5. Wolf will finally be able to present a real threat throw wise not due to the damage, but due to more opportunities to capitalize with throws without have to rely on strikes to create chances. At least until VF5 comes, It's hard for me to agree that overall Wolf is as complete as Jeffry.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:


In regards to wall dmg. We all know that both Wolf and Jeffry are very strong facing away from the wall due to their throw. When they are facing the wall however, yes wolf has , but that requires a launcher, and wolf can not use a throw in place of a launcher. Jeffry on the other hand can launch and go with at the same distance wolf and granting either butt stomp or pickup (something that wolf does not get with ), and up close he has the added option of + given the correct angle, and in FT, he doesn't have to worry about angle. This is why Jeffry poses a larger threat near the walls from my perspective, although they are both potent, just that Jeffry is a step up in terms of available options. If anything, I can accept the argument that they are equal, but wolf is definitely not stronger.



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it's wrong information.

wolf gets a garanteed reverse hammer, high pounce or ground throw after PPP, that's why it's essential and jeff doesnt have it.

jeff doesnt get any garanteed followup after P,K,P~ the opponent can techroll, infact any string near the wall with jeff, the opponent can techroll. and if you rely on b+p+g in evo to get your wall dmg, you'll be a very unhappy jeffry player.

wolf has plenty, of followups near the wall including SS --- P, P, KK~ reverse hammer / ground throw / pounce.

KK, knee, PPP, b+k+g, K all get garanteed floor damage jeffry (unless im mistaken) gets none.

and it goes even deeper than that which i can go through if u want.

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I am definitely going to disagree with the idea that Wolf is just as good in dealing with eteg as jeffry. I think it's clear from my previous post the vast amount of tools that Jeffry has over Wolf. Look at hell stab, +, , , etc.... and even his plethora of delayable strings if you want to count those. The only clarification needed is about Wolf's SS. While it is very good on block (at least in evo), it's long exe time makes it a very dangerous and difficult timing wise move, not good enough to be considered a reliable eteg stuffer if we can into account of the potential risks in an actual match. Jeffry has much more safer and reliable options than wolf's SS or . Please note that I am not saying Jeffry has it easy, I am merely saying that Jeffry's is a step up from Wolf. Although Wolf did improve in FT.


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*any* wolf player will know that SS doesnt rely on frame exe it relies on move proporites, nobody plays SS on frame advantage, it's a trump card, and can be used in situations like these because of it's evasive proporties even against low P on occasion. ~ if you want to throw it out against an mteg, it will certainly take over a throw attempt, duck a high P, and because it does have long frames, and it doesnt have a specific hit type, it will get an opponent who tries a sabaki, reversal, evasive hit like pai's db+p or elbow avoiders and even track an evader with attack one way with MC launch (yes it does do this, SS is weird like that).

AND if you think that's not enough, he still has TKS, delayed b+p, low lariat / delayed low lariat~ and you honestly dont need many.

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Wolf can not take nearly as much risk strike wise than Jeffry due to his much small set of effective tools and his inability to get out of a bad guess

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??? wolf is better..

he has raw stance against elbow (or aoi in general)

he has low P cut for any frame gaps, -1 or -0 situations, and as a defense in general. jeff has none of these.

and yes, his mid kick is safe at distance, and i for one certainly perform the distance version especially on oki.

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Wolf also can not create nearly as much opportunity than Jeffry in terms of nitaku game. He lacks a safe mid attack out of back dash, screwhook is stance dependent, the knee is one of his saving grace, although it's arguable how effective it actually is compared to other characters.

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a) he has good tools, he doesnt need "many"... that's ridiculous

B) backdash mids dont often have to be safe as you initially backdash to whiff a low P and to trap an evade.

c) screw hook is only stance dependant vs certain characters on +2 only(i.e when u get P,K +2) means low P screw hook isnt broken. it's still a legit followup and a great one. if it tracks evade and gets disadvantage, wolf has defense options which jeffry doesnt have.

d) he shouldnt be compared to anybody who isnt heavyweight.

e) [/b]he's not so much improved in FT[/b] the only real improvement is b+k, and he can certainly play fine without it.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
it's wrong information.

wolf gets a garanteed reverse hammer, high pounce or ground throw after PPP, that's why it's essential and jeff doesnt have it.

jeff doesnt get any garanteed followup after P,K,P~ the opponent can techroll, infact any string near the wall with jeff, the opponent can techroll. and if you rely on b+p+g in evo to get your wall dmg, you'll be a very unhappy jeffry player.

wolf has plenty, of followups near the wall including SS --- P, P, KK~ reverse hammer / ground throw / pounce.

KK, knee, PPP, b+k+g, K all get garanteed floor damage jeffry (unless im mistaken) gets none.

and it goes even deeper than that which i can go through if u want.


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If you go into training, you will see that I am not wrong. Those wall combos are very TR'able. Maybe you are not playing against the right players and developed this idea that you can't TR. There are different types of wall hits in VF, and there are certain instances where it's possible to wall combo and make them not TR'able, but this applies to both Wolf's and Jeffry's wall combos. So you are very much mistaken, please go see for yourself. My point stands. If you didn't know this, I really don't know how much you know about the game. Maybe PAL version is different?

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
*any* wolf player will know that SS doesnt rely on frame exe it relies on move proporites, nobody plays SS on frame advantage, it's a trump card, and can be used in situations like these because of it's evasive proporties even against low P on occasion. ~ if you want to throw it out against an mteg, it will certainly take over a throw attempt, duck a high P, and because it does have long frames, and it doesnt have a specific hit type, it will get an opponent who tries a sabaki, reversal, evasive hit like pai's db+p or elbow avoiders and even track an evader with attack one way with MC launch (yes it does do this, SS is weird like that).

AND if you think that's not enough, he still has TKS, delayed b+p, low lariat / delayed low lariat~ and you honestly dont need many.


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Yes, of course SS has it's special properties, and it should be used to maximize said properties, but it still doesn't mean you can ignore the frames. Against a player who employs evade cd cancel with eteg, you simply can't SS due to the long exe frames. Yes it avoids high during certain frame, it beats lp at certain distances due to the animation but they do not change the fact that the exe of the move plays a big part in how the move is utilized. You youself even admited that SS is weird due to it's long exe frames. You also did say something that shows your lack of understanding about the SS, which I bolded. SS does have a VERY specific hit type (shoulder), which is exactly why most characters can't sabaki or reverse the move. Aoi has no problem reversing it though. You can test this for youself. Nobody plays SS on advantage simply cause it's exe is too long, it's ridiculous to not take exe into account.


[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
??? wolf is better..

he has raw stance against elbow (or aoi in general)

he has low P cut for any frame gaps, -1 or -0 situations, and as a defense in general. jeff has none of these.

and yes, his mid kick is safe at distance, and i for one certainly perform the distance version especially on oki.


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My post says wolf has a smaller set of tools and can't get out of bad guesses as well as Jeffry. So Wolf is not as good as Jeffry in that sense. I emphasized that this doesn't make Wolf a bad character, but he is lacking compared to Jeffry. I had some spelling errors and awkwards sentence construction so sorry about that.

Yes, RAW... how many times have you done RAW in your clips? Jeffry has threat stance? Just something unique to wolf, doesn't really make him that much stronger, otherwise Goh would be considered powerful with his RAW equivalent.

If you have good experience with actually landing LPC, you will know that you can't play it strictly based on frames simple due to the fact and it has a very strict window, a rather strange one in fact, and you can't expect the opponent to always lp at precisely 0 or -1 frames. If that makes Wolf strong, then Aoi or Akira would be considered strong for those moves.

is uncounterable on block at long range is another common knowledge. As a Wolf player you should also know that you can't depend on the distance along, things change base on stance and character, the only time where it's rather consistent is in oki game, that I agree. Why does that make Wolf strong? Jeffry has plenty of uncounterable mids to pressure during oki, we have already established that in the oki department Jeffry is one of the strongest in the game.

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

a) he has good tools, he doesnt need "many"... that's ridiculous

B) backdash mids dont often have to be safe as you initially backdash to whiff a low P and to trap an evade.

c) screw hook is only stance dependant vs certain characters on +2 only(i.e when u get P,K +2) means low P screw hook isnt broken. it's still a legit followup and a great one. if it tracks evade and gets disadvantage, wolf has defense options which jeffry doesnt have.

d) he shouldnt be compared to anybody who isnt heavyweight.

e) he's not so much improved in FT the only real improvement is b+k, and he can certainly play fine without it.



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a) Like I've already said earlier, Wolf still has good tools with what he has, but when compared directly to Jeffry's he doesn't have as a good selection or even as good of moves when compared side by side. By saying he doesn't need "many" you are agreeing on this issue?

b) They don't have to be safe sure, which wolf doesn't have, but Jeffry has safe ones while wolf doesn't, that's my whole point, of which you are in agreement. Nothing can compare to Jeff's +.

c) When you say "stance dependant vs certain characters on +2 only(i.e when u get P,K +2) " You mean... more than half the characters in open stance can beat screwhook at +2? or you mean at +1 everyone can beat it with lp.... it's a know fact among jp players that screwhook can't compare as a normal elbow, and you probably already know this. The only good thing about it is that it's half circular, but if you say that is a good thing then I will really doubt how much you know wolf. If you tell me wolf is safe after the first hit is blocked then I will also doubt the kinds of competition you have.

d) I'm comparing with everyone including Jeffry. It's arguable whether Jeffry's knee is better or Wolf's. Think of Wolf and Jeffry's options after evading elbow.

e) This one there is no definite answer. Any character in FT can win without using new moves. Don't use the logic which you proved to be illegitimate earlier.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

To take a step backwards Srider, what you write makes it sound like Jeffry is strong and Wolf is weak. I just don't agree with that. Most people will say Wolf is stronger than Jeffry, though personally I think they are about equal. But to say Jeffry is better than Wolf...no, I'm not with you there.

The one thing I'll also mention is that I think SS is one of the best moves in the game...20 frames is not that bad. For reference sake, Akira's SPOD is 20 frames, Kage's feared is 23 frames, Lion's + is 20 frames, Jacky's + is 20 frames, etc. C'mon dude...BD SS is one of the most effective tactics in the game. Sure, Wolf players don't SS on advantage, but they definitely do BD SS....a lot. It's very effective--beats failed dodges, moves like and low , whiffed throw escape, crouching opponents, etc. for 70-100 points. AND it's only 12 frames on block. What more could you ask for?

And even if you have trouble punishing failed dodges with SS...you always have TKS, which is really the equivalent of Jeffry's knee. Up close, Wofl has no problems getting the throw-attack nitaku game. He has more than necessary to be really dangerous at it, especially given his 3 powerful throws.

One last thing...with the back against the wall, Jeffry has only SE. Wolf? SE and GS. Also, Wolf has that incredible SE low back throw combo if the angle is right. I think they are roughly equal in respect to walls. Facing the wall, neither are actually all that good; both require floaters to have any special advantage.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

I think you all forgot about 2 really important things in this comparing between Wolf vs Jeff:

1st - catch throws. Wolf have 2 (+ catch/change ones), and Frankenstain is good one for oki - just watch some jpn Wolfs. Jeff have none beside FT threat +.

2nd - hit throws. Jeffs ++,+ is 15 frame, and you must add 1 frame delay through imput; so 16. Can be connected on normal hit as guaranteed and is HIGH. Wolf ++,+ is in real only 1 frame slower (17 vs 16), and is MID. But ok, it is -12 on block - but still it is part of string.
Jeffs +,+ and Wolfs +,++... Both are MID, 18 and can be breaken if not MC. + is really strong one in terms of damage, + is normal one.

Wheres the point of this post? I saw tons of Wolf players using ++ hitthrow and Frankenstain catchthrow. But i saw only few times Jeffry player usinf ++ or + hitthrows... In this, Wolf is 100% better and his options are really good ones...

Edit: And Wolf have much more moves with special properties that Jeff have /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Well, to be clear, I am not saying Jeffry is stronger than Wolf. Certainly there are many common conceptions about Jeffry and Wolf and we both know this. All I am saying is that Jeffry has more dimension than Wolf. Jeffry is a more complete character, while Wolf can't have as much variety in play. Obviously this can be argued as a problem with the player, but I guess I am claiming that it's the character.

SS is definitely a good move, but I definitely won't put it in the same league as any of the moves you gave as examples. In fact, I personally don't think SS is put to maximum use as a eteg stuffer or after a back dash. I think SS is one of the best moves in the game as a range attack from just outside elbow range. Maybe if I were to give it an example it would be similar to Yoho or Sarah's DC... but we know it's nerfed a bit in FT....

Like I said, I'm only saying Wolf doesn't have the variety of Jeffry, as simple as the situation which we can't get away with, beating eteg, Jeffry has at least 5 different choices unique to Jeffry. The problem with Wolf's SS and TKS are that they are purely linear, and they are one shot only. Yes I agree that it's definitely enough to play a potent nitaku game, as any character can, but he can't create second guesses like Jeffry can. Wolf doesn't have the equivalent of Jeffry's or to give some specific examples.

Lastly, I can agree that their wall game are equal at least in evo. Back to the wall, they have SE and forward direction throws. Facing the wall, they both need launchers, or Jeff's back direction throw or Wolf's forward direction throw. I simply gave my take by considering smaller factors, but they are largely similar by these stats alone.

Anyways, the whole point of the thread was to give an idea of how the two compare, and I think we've done well at least to fulfill the intended purpose of the thread.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

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Srider said:

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BK__ said:
it's wrong information.

wolf gets a garanteed reverse hammer, high pounce or ground throw after PPP, that's why it's essential and jeff doesnt have it.

jeff doesnt get any garanteed followup after P,K,P~ the opponent can techroll, infact any string near the wall with jeff, the opponent can techroll. and if you rely on b+p+g in evo to get your wall dmg, you'll be a very unhappy jeffry player.

wolf has plenty, of followups near the wall including SS --- P, P, KK~ reverse hammer / ground throw / pounce.

KK, knee, PPP, b+k+g, K all get garanteed floor damage jeffry (unless im mistaken) gets none.

and it goes even deeper than that which i can go through if u want.


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If you go into training, you will see that I am not wrong. Those wall combos are very TR'able. Maybe you are not playing against the right players and developed this idea that you can't TR. There are different types of wall hits in VF, and there are certain instances where it's possible to wall combo and make them not TR'able, but this applies to both Wolf's and Jeffry's wall combos. So you are very much mistaken, please go see for yourself. My point stands. If you didn't know this, I really don't know how much you know about the game. Maybe PAL version is different?



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I think you are confusing bk's annotation here,
ss, p,p, AND/OR one of the followups he mentioned are not techrollable, I would like to see what kind of competition you have that can techroll after ss,p,p against the wall /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif , if you mean the last hit of soem of those comboes can be tech rollable then yeah, but wasn't the point the options available for wolf for the wall?
(my jeffrey knowledge is limited but I think overall wolf is stronger with the wall game)

p.s, People in other countries can/may/might/will play different versions of games, we play the pal/ntsc/ntscj and arcade versions including ft , gone are the days of region specific merchandise /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
it's wrong information.

wolf gets a garanteed reverse hammer, high pounce or ground throw after PPP, that's why it's essential and jeff doesnt have it.

jeff doesnt get any garanteed followup after P,K,P~ the opponent can techroll, infact any string near the wall with jeff, the opponent can techroll. and if you rely on b+p+g in evo to get your wall dmg, you'll be a very unhappy jeffry player.

wolf has plenty, of followups near the wall including SS --- P, P, KK~ reverse hammer / ground throw / pounce.

KK, knee, PPP, b+k+g, K all get garanteed floor damage jeffry (unless im mistaken) gets none.

and it goes even deeper than that which i can go through if u want.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you go into training, you will see that I am not wrong. Those wall combos are very TR'able. Maybe you are not playing against the right players and developed this idea that you can't TR. There are different types of wall hits in VF, and there are certain instances where it's possible to wall combo and make them not TR'able, but this applies to both Wolf's and Jeffry's wall combos. So you are very much mistaken, please go see for yourself. My point stands. If you didn't know this, I really don't know how much you know about the game. Maybe PAL version is different?


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i went to training mode and set the cpu to techroll

landed PPP against wall~~ garanteed ground hit.

(during combo) KK~ ground hit

(during combo) Knee ~ ground hit

so what do i say in your textbook knowlege of "wolf doesnt get this followup but jeffry does even though on wall hit you can control wether your opponent techrolls or not"

even if jeff's gets a ground followup or not, u was talking BS

dont start dissing the people i play against.


[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
*any* wolf player will know that SS doesnt rely on frame exe it relies on move proporites, nobody plays SS on frame advantage, it's a trump card, and can be used in situations like these because of it's evasive proporties even against low P on occasion. ~ if you want to throw it out against an mteg, it will certainly take over a throw attempt, duck a high P, and because it does have long frames, and it doesnt have a specific hit type, it will get an opponent who tries a sabaki, reversal, evasive hit like pai's db+p or elbow avoiders and even track an evader with attack one way with MC launch (yes it does do this, SS is weird like that).

AND if you think that's not enough, he still has TKS, delayed b+p, low lariat / delayed low lariat~ and you honestly dont need many.


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Yes, of course SS has it's special properties, and it should be used to maximize said properties, but it still doesn't mean you can ignore the frames. Against a player who employs evade cd cancel with eteg, you simply can't SS due to the long exe frames. Yes it avoids high during certain frame, it beats lp at certain distances due to the animation but they do not change the fact that the exe of the move plays a big part in how the move is utilized. You youself even admited that SS is weird due to it's long exe frames. You also did say something that shows your lack of understanding about the SS, which I bolded. SS does have a VERY specific hit type (shoulder), which is exactly why most characters can't sabaki or reverse the move. Aoi has no problem reversing it though. You can test this for youself. Nobody plays SS on advantage simply cause it's exe is too long, it's ridiculous to not take exe into account.


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WTF~!!!!?!??!?!

long exe is what makes the move usable against evasive defense actions such as lei's b,f+p+k, ~ pai's db+p, and aoi's bb+p+k

wolf's SS is 20 frames and gets incredable proporties.

goh's launchers are 23 and 24 frames and gets no such proporties.

people dont use SS at frame advantage because they have knee instead which is a different tool, and ove stated many times that it is a different tool, and stated why people use SS.

and aside from that ive just listed how usesful this move is~

dont you know how to mix up?????????

SS + nitaku (knee / screw hook / TKS)

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
??? wolf is better..

he has raw stance against elbow (or aoi in general)

he has low P cut for any frame gaps, -1 or -0 situations, and as a defense in general. jeff has none of these.

and yes, his mid kick is safe at distance, and i for one certainly perform the distance version especially on oki.


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My post says wolf has a smaller set of tools and can't get out of bad guesses as well as Jeffry. So Wolf is not as good as Jeffry in that sense. I emphasized that this doesn't make Wolf a bad character, but he is lacking compared to Jeffry. I had some spelling errors and awkwards sentence construction so sorry about that.

Yes, RAW... how many times have you done RAW in your clips? Jeffry has threat stance? Just something unique to wolf, doesn't really make him that much stronger, otherwise Goh would be considered powerful with his RAW equivalent.

If you have good experience with actually landing LPC, you will know that you can't play it strictly based on frames simple due to the fact and it has a very strict window, a rather strange one in fact, and you can't expect the opponent to always lp at precisely 0 or -1 frames. If that makes Wolf strong, then Aoi or Akira would be considered strong for those moves.

is uncounterable on block at long range is another common knowledge. As a Wolf player you should also know that you can't depend on the distance along, things change base on stance and character, the only time where it's rather consistent is in oki game, that I agree. Why does that make Wolf strong? Jeffry has plenty of uncounterable mids to pressure during oki, we have already established that in the oki department Jeffry is one of the strongest in the game.


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A) if you see my clips you'll see wolf vs pai often. pai in EVO uses swallow kick as an elbow game. therefore i cannot RAW often at disadvantage.

yes goh is very very good at disadvantage and recoveries because of his sabakis and evasive hits. didnt u know that?? ~~ jeff's threat stance is not a sabaki tool

B) wolf gets -0 on MC low K. in this situation you low P cut or screw hook. ~ it means if the opp attacks any slower than low P, they lose to screw hook. he also gets -1 on knee, it means the opp is also confined to using low P only if they want to beat your low P.

and even without those stratergies i said -1 and -0 inaccuratley because there are frame gaps inbetween freezes, recoveries or whiffs when opp will react with low P~ and wolf is very good at catching these moments.

C) as i said before sweep / mid hit is the best choice game for oki. and if you can create a safe half circular mid, then do that.~ your initial querry is "wolf doesnt get a safe mid hit if you backdash" ~ and im saying "yes he does"~~ in conclusion i am trying to throw out essential tools wolf has to use and how ~

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

a) he has good tools, he doesnt need "many"... that's ridiculous

B) backdash mids dont often have to be safe as you initially backdash to whiff a low P and to trap an evade.

c) screw hook is only stance dependant vs certain characters on +2 only(i.e when u get P,K +2) means low P screw hook isnt broken. it's still a legit followup and a great one. if it tracks evade and gets disadvantage, wolf has defense options which jeffry doesnt have.

d) he shouldnt be compared to anybody who isnt heavyweight.

e) he's not so much improved in FT the only real improvement is b+k, and he can certainly play fine without it.



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a) Like I've already said earlier, Wolf still has good tools with what he has, but when compared directly to Jeffry's he doesn't have as a good selection or even as good of moves when compared side by side. By saying he doesn't need "many" you are agreeing on this issue?

b) They don't have to be safe sure, which wolf doesn't have, but Jeffry has safe ones while wolf doesn't, that's my whole point, of which you are in agreement. Nothing can compare to Jeff's +.

c) When you say "stance dependant vs certain characters on +2 only(i.e when u get P,K +2) " You mean... more than half the characters in open stance can beat screwhook at +2? or you mean at +1 everyone can beat it with lp.... it's a know fact among jp players that screwhook can't compare as a normal elbow, and you probably already know this. The only good thing about it is that it's half circular, but if you say that is a good thing then I will really doubt how much you know wolf. If you tell me wolf is safe after the first hit is blocked then I will also doubt the kinds of competition you have.

d) I'm comparing with everyone including Jeffry. It's arguable whether Jeffry's knee is better or Wolf's. Think of Wolf and Jeffry's options after evading elbow.

e) This one there is no definite answer. Any character in FT can win without using new moves. Don't use the logic which you proved to be illegitimate earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

a) NO. i said he doesnt need many because no character needs many, they need "good ones".

b) but what is your point? that hardly changes the situation in the slightest because the opponent is not encouraged to block. ~

c) NO. some of the character in open stance can beat it at -2 and screw hook's average game is not +2 it's used at +3 on average. ~ if you are complaining about the first hit of screw hook, it's the same as jeff's shot knee, so shooosh

what would you rather, being evaded~ or getting safe disatvantage?~~ why are you comming into this thread, bitching with wrong information about wolf, complaing about every move yet claiming to use wolf, and then doubting my understanding of wolf when im telling you what things you can do and where??

your analysis of wolf so far has been "wolf cant do sh*t" ~ what does that tell you about your "understanding of wolf??"

d) WTF

e) WTF


"GO BACK TO SCHOOL~!!!!"

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

I'm not going to argue if some one can't see for themself by testing stuff out correctly.

I'll just say quickly, wall combo can be TR'ed. It becomes TR'able if at the end of the wall combo, the opponent falls below the height of Wolf. To launch and then do , will result in a TR'able wall combo unless you somehow was able to keep the opponent floating high enough. With Wolf, the only way to get that kind of float is with MC SS or maybe against lightweights. At the distance close enough to do just to make it non TR'able, Jeff can do just as well as Wolf. I can't believe you didn't know the different types of wall hit in evo.

MOST of the characters can beat screwhook with LP in open stance at -2. Just go try this. Jeffry would not use shotknee in the same light as wolf's screwhook. Screw hook on normal hit is crap on normal hit. Not only does it not guarantee the second hit, player like Kage can even do after the first hit to beat the second. Japanese Wolf players all know the you must hit check to see if it was a crouch hit or counter. Like you said though, it can be used safely at +3 or above. See how lacking wolf can be compared to others?

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
long exe is what makes the move usable against evasive defense actions such as lei's b,f+p+k, ~ pai's db+p, and aoi's bb+p+k


[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly true, long exe is part of it, but the deciding factor is the reach and class of the attack. For example, lau can beat lei's + with , can beat aoi's + with standing palm. Both of those moves have considerably less special properties and much faster exe speed compared to SS.

Wolf certainly can win, and I am not saying he can't do anything. His play is much more confined compared to other characters. I think it would be a good idea if you and the people you play with maybe can look at the information I've given and use it to become better players, no matter how hard it is to accept these corrections. I don't think it's disputable once you've tried it out especially since these are not my knowledge to begin with, they come from mook and jp player's mouth. I'm not complaining about wolf, the point of the thread was to compare them so I did. I don't see why people keep on trying to get around that purpose. Maybe you can try playing Jeffry and see the difference.

I feel that the information so far is fairly complete on Wolf's side so I'm done.

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

(sigh........)


[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

I'm not going to argue if some one can't see for themself by testing stuff out correctly.

I'll just say quickly, wall combo can be TR'ed. It becomes TR'able if at the end of the wall combo, the opponent falls below the height of Wolf. To launch and then do , will result in a TR'able wall combo unless you somehow was able to keep the opponent floating high enough. With Wolf, the only way to get that kind of float is with MC SS or maybe against lightweights. At the distance close enough to do just to make it non TR'able, Jeff can do just as well as Wolf. I can't believe you didn't know the different types of wall hit in evo.


[/ QUOTE ]

i stated '(combo)" and then the correct followup meaning if you were to do P ~ P ~ KK, ~ reverse hammer off the ground, then the P, P should be juggled before you hit the wall, and then the KK should be after you hit the wall for it to become non TR'able~~

on a lower float i have also done PPP near the wall on it's own for a garanteed ground follow up~~

where did i state that i didnt know the different hit types?? i stated that those followups near a wall garantee a gorund followup and guess what? "they do".

[ QUOTE ]

MOST of the characters can beat screwhook with LP in open stance at -2. Just go try this. Jeffry would not use shotknee in the same light as wolf's screwhook. Screw hook on normal hit is crap on normal hit. Not only does it not guarantee the second hit, player like Kage can even do after the first hit to beat the second. Japanese Wolf players all know the you must hit check to see if it was a crouch hit or counter. Like you said though, it can be used safely at +3 or above. See how lacking wolf can be compared to others?


[/ QUOTE ]

i thought you would already figure out i meant +3 as in low p normal hit~ ofcourse everybody's best and safest nitaku starts at low p does it not??

and no, wolf's not hard done by, every other character if gets +2 can be completely fuzzy guarded against nitaku~ where as wolf cannot be due to KS and PGS. ~~ in anycase the open stance thing was a bug which was fixed in FT~ not improving wolf, but fixing wolf, there's a difference.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:
long exe is what makes the move usable against evasive defense actions such as lei's b,f+p+k, ~ pai's db+p, and aoi's bb+p+k


[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly true, long exe is part of it, but the deciding factor is the reach and class of the attack. For example, lau can beat lei's + with , can beat aoi's + with standing palm. Both of those moves have considerably less special properties and much faster exe speed compared to SS.


[/ QUOTE ]

inwhich case "the cause of wolf being able to hit these moves with SS is because of the slow exe" ~~

"SO!.........WHAT!!"

the point is remained untouched.

[ QUOTE ]

Wolf certainly can win, and I am not saying he can't do anything. His play is much more confined compared to other characters. I think it would be a good idea if you and the people you play with maybe can look at the information I've given and use it to become better players, no matter how hard it is to accept these corrections. I don't think it's disputable once you've tried it out especially since these are not my knowledge to begin with, they come from mook and jp player's mouth. I'm not complaining about wolf, the point of the thread was to compare them so I did. I don't see why people keep on trying to get around that purpose. Maybe you can try playing Jeffry and see the difference.

I feel that the information so far is fairly complete on Wolf's side so I'm done.

[/ QUOTE ]

well thanks for letting me correct you.

and yet again you insult the rest of UK at VF~ ~

for what reason?

 

Re: H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

I apologize if I seemed disrespectful to the UK players. There are definitely some top notch players there and I've had the honor to personally experience their strength. I just find it strange that the same knowledge that I've learned from certain UK players are being disputed here. I never intended to insult UK players, but I do feel that much of the information given thus far by everyone are highly valuable and beneficial to use in vf play. I guess it comes down to personal tastes. The issue of whether or not Wolf is inherently weak is an old one, and I was one of the proponents that he is not. This time, however, I merely gave a relative perspective on what kind of a character Wolf is compared to Jeffry with evidence learned through various means over the years. Some of the reasons I gave were challenged, and I've responded to those challenges. Since I believe that all that needs to be said has been said, and all the informations are in plain sight right above this post, the best thing to do is to try everything yourself and see what works and what doesn't, what's true and what's not true. That is the point of VF, that's why we play it, and that's why we all tell the noobs that there is no tier.

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

I can’t take this anymore... Ice-9 you are stupid!

Ice-9…its amazes me... Truly amazing, how you are able to live this long without getting hit by a car while crossing the street being so stupid. Why don’t you take a piss on the ground, check your reflection from it before you post? Maybe then you’ll realize the incalculable amount of horse shit you are able to spew out. But then again you are probably too stupid to realize you are a stupid idiot. Let me help you out:

Ice-9 said: “dynamic situation. His next best throw ending is 60 pts.â€Â

This is horse shit because: any decent player (which is apparently not ice-9) would be able to pull out b,ff+pg out no problem. If b,ff+pg is too hard for ya, stop playing vf. A wolf player can make the same argument that, “well, I can’t do PGS†or “270 f+pg takes timeâ€Â. Using the same semi-intelligence formula wolf’s best throw ending in f+pg is only 60 damage also.. And 4 frames slower!!! And let me add that b,ff+pg has built-in forward dash also, combine with jeff’s extended throw range, you can grab people where other character’s can’t, like wolf’s d/f+k at long range, lion’s f+kg, and many open stance situations. Only a fucking idiot would dismiss this throw.

Ice-9 said: “I prefer 3 highly damaging throws (Wolf) than 4 relatively weaker throws (Aoi).â€Â

This is horse shit because: (I’m laughing as I attempt to give an explanation of this).. It’s pretty elementary why wolf players need, not prefer, high power throws. If give Wolf 8 directions weak throws it would still be weaker than having 3 power throws. If you are fighting someone who gives you 3 chances to throw them and you can’t KO him, you will lose, period.

Ice-9 said: “Also, Jeffry is a horrible poking character. Almost every useful long-distance attack is throw counterableâ€Â

What the fucking are you smoking Ice-9??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before? Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

f,f+p
b,d/f+p
b+k
d/f+kg
b+p
f+pk
d+kg
ff+k
b,f+p
d/f+p

all of these moves are SAFE dude!! Many can be delayed, and many will give you a ton of damage and will hit a dodger!! It is comments like this that makes people think ‘What the fuck was on you mind?†Have you ever played vf4 before????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Comparing Jeff’s pokes to wolf is only someone stupid like you would be able to do.

Ice-9 said “I think the wall is equally friendly to Jeffry and Wolf.â€Â

No, Wall is more friendly to Wolf on throws, and jeff on attacks. Apple and Oranges.

Ice-9 said “Wolf has TKS which will always give you ~65 points (comparable to a non-MC knee), b+P which is very fast and safe on block, or his various catch throws. And SS...dude, SS is only -12 frames on block, avoids a lot of attacks, and floats for a near-automatic 70-80 point combo. Wolf is VERY effective dealing against MTEG players.

This is horse shit because: how in the fuck did you come up with this? The only thing Wolf does best vs. MTEG is to delay PGS throw, everything else SUCK! Comparing TKS to a knee is fucking absurd. Have you even seen the shit Jeff’s knee can do to light weights? Knee gives you a float and a chance to fight TR. Knee can be used regardless of range. Do you even know you can’t connect TKS at long range? b+P? who the fuck uses b+p vs. TR? Ice-9? And SS, 12 frames on block..only? ONLY? Only a P,K in the face. And no.. it doesn’t avoid a lots of attacks, in fact it barely avoid ANY attacks.. And no it’s not an auto 70-80 point combo. No decent Wolf will toss out the SS unless: 1 he pretty sure it's gonna hit. or 2 he's gambling cuz he's gonna die. This is not a move you want to toss out to see what happens, junior. This is something a text book player like you will never learn. As far as attacks are considered Jeff just plain outshine Wolf in every way. Stop trying to prove Wolf has good attacks; you only make an ass out of yourself.

Ice-9 said “The one thing I'll also mention is that I think SS is one of the best moves in the game...â€Â

No it’s not, not even close and you are a stupid fuck to think it is. Akira’s SPoD is ½ circular, even with that it’s not a great move, hardly “one of the bestâ€Â. Jacky’s b+kg is fucking -6 on guard you idiot, and Lion’s P+K is -2, They give great damage return and low risk at the right time. Wolf’s SS is slow execute AND slow recovery, and recovery matters… anything that recovers at -12 is not something you can use on a regular basis.. And to even compare SS to Kage’s d/f+p…you should have your fingers cut off and never be able to play vf and jerk off again.

Ice-9 said “BD SS is one of the most effective tactics in the game.â€Â

No it’s not, the only place you see this is on some demo video or in your wet dreams.

Ice-9 said “It's very effective--beats failed dodges, moves like P and low P, whiffed throw escape, crouching opponents, etc. for 70-100 points.â€Â

No it’s not; you are stupid for confusing yourself with Akira’s SSR. And please… please list me a combo that does 100 points of damage when Wolf’s SS beats a dodge. Wait.. how about a 90 point damage combo instead because you are so full of shit. How about 80? How about stfu?

Ice-9 said “with the back against the wall, Jeffry has only SE. Wolf? SE and GS.â€Â

He also has u/f+pg, f+pg. Do you know how to use them? Ice-9 Why dont you just STFU and die? Being a noobie Jeffry player that you are.. just stfu, and stop posting on shit you know nothing of. Go back to more Kage cock hugging with Myke please.

Anyways, back to the question of the OP. I'm going to toss my 2cents on the topic, which I think it's a good question... To quote Mason wood from VF2:

“I believed that Jeffry's strengths lie in the fear of throws, and the execution of a lot of Uppercuts, knees, and punchesâ€Â

I think this pretty much sums it up pretty well. Jeffry has great attacks, that will return damage regardless of hit status, and he has good throws. He uses his throws to setup his attacks. Where as Wolf.. Wolf uses attacks to setup for his incredible powerful throws. Wolf’s throw game is so much more powerful than any other character in the game (yes including kage). He can use throws not only do incredible amount of damage but at the same time change positions, set up a throw from a throw, setup for an attack. It’s just amazing when you think youââ¬â„¢ve escaped Wolf’s throws but yet you aren’t at advantage, in fact you are still in danger. But his attacks just plain sucks. So it becomes very technical to setup throws with the very limited amount of attacks you have without being frustrated by the waves and waves of punches and elbows a typical character will throw at you. Which I can “almost†understand from Sega’s point of view because giving Wolf decent attacks could easily unbalance the game.

P.S. Ice-9 is stupid

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

Welcome to VFDC!

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

It's a returning guest.

/KiwE

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

[ QUOTE ]
Blueskies2000 said:What the fucking are you smoking Ice-9??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before? Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

f,f+p
b,d/f+p
b+k
d/f+kg
b+p
f+pk
d+kg
ff+k
b,f+p
d/f+p

all of these moves are SAFE dude!! Many can be delayed, and many will give you a ton of damage and will hit a dodger!! It is comments like this that makes people think ‘What the fuck was on you mind?†Have you ever played vf4 before????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Comparing Jeff’s pokes to wolf is only someone stupid like you would be able to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the fucking are you smoking Blueskies2000??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before?Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

b,d/f+p is -14
b+k is -10
b+p is -10
f+pk is -12
d+kg is -14

none of these moves are SAFE dude!!

/versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ROFL /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

[ QUOTE ]
Unicorn said:

[ QUOTE ]
Blueskies2000 said:What the fucking are you smoking Ice-9??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before? Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

f,f+p
b,d/f+p
b+k
d/f+kg
b+p
f+pk
d+kg
ff+k
b,f+p
d/f+p

all of these moves are SAFE dude!! Many can be delayed, and many will give you a ton of damage and will hit a dodger!! It is comments like this that makes people think ‘What the fuck was on you mind?†Have you ever played vf4 before????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Comparing Jeff’s pokes to wolf is only someone stupid like you would be able to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the fucking are you smoking Blueskies2000??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before?Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

b,d/f+p is -14
b+k is -10
b+p is -10
f+pk is -12
d+kg is -14

none of these moves are SAFE dude!!

/versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ROFL /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is someone who really doesn't play VF4....

They are safe cause of their canned follow ups. All these moves lets Jeffry create a second nitaku situation even when they are blocked. Except I guess + and +....

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

I love poking with 27 frame moves like ff+k. It's advantage on guard and all I mean.

/KiwE

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

b+K and b+P have canned follow-up, but they cannot be delayed and you have enough time to easily react on blocking this move. And both follows of this moves are much worst on block.
b,df+P have some kind of secondary nitaku game, but weak as hell. 14 frame elbow kills you most of the time.
f+P+K and d+K+G have no follow-up

Sorry, but I know what I am talking about here, because I have some expirience with them /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

[ QUOTE ]
Unicorn said:

[ QUOTE ]
Blueskies2000 said:What the fucking are you smoking Ice-9??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before? Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

f,f+p
b,d/f+p
b+k
d/f+kg
b+p
f+pk
d+kg
ff+k
b,f+p
d/f+p

all of these moves are SAFE dude!! Many can be delayed, and many will give you a ton of damage and will hit a dodger!! It is comments like this that makes people think ‘What the fuck was on you mind?†Have you ever played vf4 before????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Comparing Jeff’s pokes to wolf is only someone stupid like you would be able to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the fucking are you smoking Blueskies2000??? Are you fucking crazy? Have you played VF4 before?Other than spelling checking do you even read what you type??? Are you fucking brain-dead??

b,d/f+p is -14
b+k is -10
b+p is -10
f+pk is -12
d+kg is -14

none of these moves are SAFE dude!!

/versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ROFL /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is someone who really doesn't play VF4....

They are safe cause of their canned follow ups. All these moves lets Jeffry create a second nitaku situation even when they are blocked. Except I guess + and +....

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is someone who really doesn't know how to play against Jeffry. For and , if you defend the first hit, the defender can throw or block. As long as you guess 50% right of the time, you will always win because the damage on the second hit is pitiful compared to a throw. The concept is simillar to Lau/Pai's and Shun's , which is why those moves aren't good for poking either. Yes, the canned follow-up ameliorates some of the risk for Jeffry, but that hardly makes them good poking moves!!

You cannot delay the hook from the shot knee, so if you are competent you should be able to tell when Jeffry is only going for shot knee or for both.

Shang...you need to get your head out of your ass and get a girlfriend. Do you really believe you are more influential and convincing by trying to sound like an asshole?

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

if you defend the first hit, the defender can throw or block. As long as you guess 50% right of the time, you will always win because the damage on the second hit is pitiful compared to a throw. The concept is simillar to Lau/Pai's PPP and Shun's dfPP.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:
All these moves lets Jeffry create a second nitaku situation even when they are blocked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Am I right? maybe not...

Edit: to be clear, Jeffry gets to pick between a canned mid that knocks down or a throw after he gets blocked as you said and as I said, another nitaku situation.