Helena isn't weak

Let's take her AoP first. This attack gives her a permanent crouch and also makes all her best options right there. Add to that the d,d double crouch, and you get an insanely hard to hit character. The double crouch makes her invulnerable to all mid and high attacks. THE ONLY WAY TO HIT HER IS WITH A LOW ATTACK!! If you see this coming, just cancel low DH. Voila, she can't be hit!

Now let's say you go into AoP. Your opponent attacks mid... d,d; he misses. He attacks high, he misses. He attcks low, DH. If you think he'll get smart and try a low throw, simply P+K to hit him up, etc.

Also the double crouch gets her out of all sorts of sticky sits. Jann-Lee trying to f+P+G? Just quickly input d+P+K~d,d. Your free.

If the opponent tries to block when you go into AoP, throw. That's her best one (QCF+P+G) and its right there. On high- counter this does 90(70?) or something sick like that. Its the only throw that you need.

High damage combos? Try QCF+P,f+p,p,p,uf+k,p,p,b+p,p.
This is great because you can cancel it at any time if the person try a DH; you can then wait and continue the combo.

 

well.....

Let's take her AoP first. This attack gives her a permanent crouch and also makes all her best options right there. Add to that the d,d double crouch, and you get an insanely hard to hit character. The double crouch makes her invulnerable to all mid and high attacks.

Not ALL mid attacks...think mids like Hayabusa's u/b+K.

THE ONLY WAY TO HIT HER IS WITH A LOW ATTACK!! If you see this coming, just cancel low DH. Voila, she can't be hit!

When I read this...I thought "brilliant tactic!" Until I tried it out for myself and realized that you can't DH while Helena is in AoP. I'd have to first get out of AoP and then reverse...which is not very fast, I'm afraid to say. Do you have some sort of quick shortcut to low DH from AoP so it appears seamless? I had trouble tricking opponents with this strategy last night.

Now let's say you go into AoP. Your opponent attacks mid... d,d; he misses. He attacks high, he misses. He attcks low, DH. If you think he'll get smart and try a low throw, simply P+K to hit him up, etc.

Or you could just stand up and low throw or f+P the guy.

Also the double crouch gets her out of all sorts of sticky sits. Jann-Lee trying to f+P+G? Just quickly input d+P+K~d,d. Your free.

I wish it was that simple! Fact of the matter is...it's impractical to AoP -> move on reflex. AoP moves only become useful only after Helena is already in AoP.

If the opponent tries to block when you go into AoP, throw. That's her best one (QCF+P+G) and its right there. On high- counter this does 90(70?) or something sick like that. Its the only throw that you need.

I agree...but then again, it's no Izuna Drop or Gen Fu TFT.

High damage combos? Try QCF+P,f+p,p,p,uf+k,p,p,b+p,p.
This is great because you can cancel it at any time if the person try a DH; you can then wait and continue the combo.

Seems like a nice sequence, but I don't really consider anything you can DH out of a combo.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying Helena is a useless character. I got quick a few winning streaks with her yesterday. However, compared to the characters above her in tier, you have to work a lot harder and be a lot smarter to win with her. As is, I think her saving grace is not her AoP itself (although it plays a part) but her incredible f+P.

Think about it...she can get an easy 100++ pts of damage from a fairly quick middle hit with range and that has a follow up!

ice-9

 

Re: well.....

Let's take her AoP first. This attack gives her a permanent crouch and also makes all her best options right there. Add
to that the d,d double crouch, and you get an insanely hard to hit character. The double crouch makes her invulnerable
to all mid and high attacks.

"Not ALL mid attacks...think mids like Hayabusa's u/b+K."

Yes, Hayabusas' u/b+k is harder to dodge because it comes out fast and you have to be close for it to hit.
I was thinking, howwever that you're not try to dodge a spacific move, but you're attempting to crouch under any mid attack when you belive your opponent is going to do one. This way you can dodge alot of them, thus making it frustrating to hit you.


"THE ONLY WAY TO HIT HER IS WITH A LOW ATTACK!! If you see this coming, just cancel low DH. Voila, she can'tbe hit!

"When I read this...I thought "brilliant tactic!" Until I tried it out for myself and realized that you can't DH while Helena is in AoP. I'd have to first get out of AoP and then reverse...which is not very fast, I'm afraid to say. Do you have some sort of quick shortcut to low DH from AoP so it appears seamless? I had trouble tricking opponents with this strategy last night."

Okay, try this: your opponent is lying on the ground, you go into AoP. He then gets up with a mid rising kick, you double crouch under his attack then hit p+g to throw him well he's recovering, back to AoP. This time he gets up with a low rising kick to hit you out of the AoP. What you do is this: quickly input g,f,d+g. This will reverse his low kick every time. By hitting S you cancel the AoP, this happens almost instantly, then you do the low DH. You can practice this by going into sparring mode on the DC and getting the the computer to do low and mid attacks. Crouch under the mid then cancel and DH the low attack. After a bit of practice this will be no problem at all. The trick is waiting till you're sure the opponent is doing a low attack. Then you cancel and low DH. If you do it properlly, it looks seemless and comes out just fast enuegh that you often get high counter or counter DHs. It does work, though.

"Now let's say you go into AoP. Your opponent attacks mid... d,d; he misses. He attacks high, he misses. He attacks low, DH. If you think he'll get smart and try a low throw, simply P+K to hit him up, etc.

"Or you could just stand up and low throw or f+P the guy.

"Also the double crouch gets her out of all sorts of sticky sits. Jann-Lee trying to f+P+G? Just quickly input d+P+K~d,d. Your free."

"I wish it was that simple! Fact of the matter is...it's impractical to AoP -> move on reflex. AoP moves only become useful only after Helena is already in AoP."

I meant this to be used as a defence against being mashed by this over and over and over again. You get hit by f+p+g your at such a huge disadvantage that its impractical to attack because you'll either get hit by another high counter f+p+g or maybe you'll get hit by a D,b,f+p and lose half your life in one shot. GOODIE!! But with the double crouch you'll be safe from both. After you get hit input d+p+k~d,d this fixes your problem. You go into AoP and double crouch instantly, to fast for the opponent to get you with either of those moves. This takes alot of the guessing out of playing against Jann-Lee because you can avoid these troublesome sits. All you can be hit with are low throws and low attacks(wich you can reverse). This works to.

"If the opponent tries to block when you go into AoP, throw. That's her best one (QCF+P+G) and its right there. On high- counter this does 90(70?) or something sick like that. Its the only throw that you need.

"I agree...but then again, it's no Izuna Drop or Gen Fu TFT."

Yes, it isn't either of these throws(And it isn't a Bass bomb either) but that doesn't make it a bad throw. You just don't depend on throws like you would other characters. You poke and prod and use the AoP to get your opponent off gaurd. All the throw is for is to punish DHs. And 90 isn't anything to sneeze at.

"High damage combos? Try QCF+P,f+p,p,p,uf+k,p,p,b+p,p.
This is great because you can cancel it at any time if the person try a DH; you can then wait and continue the combo.

"Seems like a nice sequence, but I don't really consider anything you can DH out of a combo.

Wich is presisly why I said to throw whenever you see a DH coming. This combo does good damage, but if they DH and you catch its still half!

She is good!

 

Re: well.....

Okay, try this: your opponent is lying on the ground, you go into AoP. He then gets up with a mid rising kick, you double crouch under his attack then hit p+g to throw him well he's recovering, back to AoP.

P+S?! Be merciless!! Roll into QCF+P+S!

This time he gets up with a low rising kick to hit you out of the AoP. What you do is this: quickly input g,f,d+g. This will reverse his low kick every time. By hitting S you cancel the AoP, this happens almost instantly, then you do the low DH.

Yep, this works very well! Heh heh, thanks for the tip! It works just like Lion's d+P -> elbow...cool. Still, however, it's 1 frame slower at the least, but it's definitely fast enough to use for mind games.

She is good!

Hmmm, let me put it this way. Which character(s) do you think should be tiered below her?

ice-9

 

Re: well.....

P+S?! Be merciless!! Roll into QCF+P+S!

no need; S+P from the low stance is equivalent to the good old QCF+S+P.



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Re: well.....

Bugger! Great tip! /images/icons/smile.gif I've been doing the extra inputs for nothing! Grrr! /images/icons/mad.gif

Is that d P K -> P S = QCF P S or is it d P K -> d,d -> P S = QCF P S?

ice-9

 

Re: well.....

i know for sure that doing a S+P from d+S+K will net you the same throw as QCF+S+P. i don't know if the d,d makes a difference, or if the throw just happens after the double crouch.



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Re: well.....

There is no auto throw after the d,d. And, yes, if you throw from the AoP you'll always get the qcf throw.

I almost exclusevly use the d,d-cancel,DH when the opponent is on the ground. This makes it a very interesting mind war against your opponent when they fall.

Also, in response to ice-9's question "Who should be under Helena", well this is a very difficult question. Every character seems to have a strengh that ranks them up near the top. I can't very well say "It's Zack" because they all have power! Its not like VF3, where there are characters that are distinctly weaker than others. I'd LIKE to say that certain characters are weaker, but they aren't.

But since you asked. Zack, I know he has power, but only if your opponent can't read you well. His p,p,b shit is nice, but if they don't guess and decide to attack when you start to spin, well you don't do much! He is powerful, though. Very powerful. That's what makes centering him out so hard.

 

Re: well.....

I'll have to disagree with you there! On the whole, VF3tb (arcade) feels more balanced than DOA2 even though DOA2 is more homogenized in terms of what the characters can or cannot do. The top tier in DOA2 IS distinctly stronger than all the other characters.

However, I have been playing Zack quite a bit and I do agree that he's not as powerful as I once thought he was. Is he weaker than Helena? Like you said, tough call. However, in the context of what you have written, I slightly disagree as to the reasons why. Helena is strong, but not really for her AoP d,d mind game although it certainly contributes; I would say it's her poking game (f+P, AoP strikes, etc.) and her QCF+P+S throw that make her strong. As for Zack...I happen to think his P,P,b is useless against good characters! A simple P would interrupt his spin move and prevent him from doing anything interesting.

ice-9

 

Re: well.....

Aoi and Pai are as strong as Akira and Kage? Even Amil agrees that this isn't the case.

 

Re: well.....

"Aoi and Pai are as strong as Akira and Kage?
Even Amil agrees that this isn't the case."

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
EMIL not Amil

As for character balance in VF...wrong message board!

-Emil
cough cough Aoi sucks

 

Re: well.....

In capable hands Aoi and Pai are certainly capable of handling equally capable Kage and Akira. If you need to look for immediate proof, just look to the NY scene. On any given day, Andy's Pai can defeat Adam's Akira and my Kage. Too bad there are no really good Aoi players here in the U.S...but I've seen plenty in Japan. And they are GOOD.

ice-9

 

Re: well.....

My Jacky is way better than my Aoi and I have invested the same amount of practice in both characters. Zero!

At the highest levels Aoi is probably just as good as any other character.

"On any given day, Andy's Pai can defeat Adam's Akira and my Kage."

On any given day I can't beat any of these players.

-Emil