Help a newbie with some advice

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by karacha, Feb 10, 2002.

  1. karacha

    karacha New Member

    Hi everyone. I'm very interested in playing VF4, and I can say that I'm a very good, experienced Tekken player. Are there any Tekken players around (Triple Lei, for example) who can tell me what's similar and whats different in VF4 from TTT or T4, for example? How hard is it to swith to a new game like this?

    Thanks all.
     
  2. Triple Lei

    Triple Lei Well-Known Member

    Hi hi... well, there's a FAQ currently only at <a target="_blank" href=http://www.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/game/12144.html>GameFAQs</a> for this, so be sure to read up on that. The guy should have mentioned notation similarites and differences, such as "FC." In Tekken it means "fully crouching" (like Yoshi's FC,d/f+3), but in Virtua Fighter it means "from crouching," which is really just a Tekken "WS."

    Personally, I think VF isn't nearly as combo-filled as Tekken Tag. But VF really has a lot to offer. Flash isn't apparent at all until you actually begin playing. Then you realize that there's some mind game going on every second. That's due in part to the Guard Cancelling, but then there's also buffering moves into crouchdashes (which everyone has) into D,df moves and whatnot.

    Movement is still very important. Probably moreso since there's ring outs and wall stuff.

    Some of the moves (most notably Akira's) are very hard to do. Let's say that Jin could do the 2nd hit of his b,f+2,1,2 with a qcf+1 or something. If Jin was in Virtua Fighter you would have to do b,f+2,qcf+1,f,f+2. Such is the case with Akira's DLC: df+K+G,f+P,b,f,f+P+K. All the moves in the string are individual moves, but the command for the DLC string isn't made any easier.

    Most of the people here are helpful, but watch out for the occasional VF elitist or ignoramus (most often found in an anti-Tekken thread in the General forum). I'm pretty sure other Tekken players like ShinJin and Cosmic Forge could help you out too.

    In sum, I think VF leaves a lot of the depth to the player rather than the character. Some are just naturally harder to pick up (like Akira, Wolf, Jeffry), and some are easier (Jacky), but there's not really any character to avoid... especially since Taka (from VF3) is gone. No character is seriously mismatched against another.
     
  3. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I dunno about anyone else, but I've been using FC to mean from crouch, rather than while standing. There aren't many WS attacks in VF anyway. I think the old way of expressing these was D, n+(button)..

    Anyway to make this post useful and less nitpicky, I'd recommend to the newbie that he try lau as a starter character. VF players joke that lau has always been a tekken-y character, and his canned combos are strong and very easy to learn.. d/f+K, P, P ... or P, b+P, P. Nothing too fancy.
     
  4. LemonMan

    LemonMan Active Member

    'nother newb

    There's a few things that I'm still getting used to.

    You have to be pressing Guard to block. No more holding back on the joystick. I still catch myself holding back when I press G, just from habit. Need to stop that. You can't throw someone out of an attack. If someone is in the middle of a slow move, a throw does no good. Juggles generally happen very low to the ground (relative to Tekken).

    The biggest hurtle for me, though, has just been getting used to the characters, their moves, what the moves look like, their recovery time, and so on.

    A lot of the basics carry right over though. Once you get used to blocking low moves, you make sure you know what FC move to follow up with. You start timing throws or juggle starters to hit rising opponents. If you're playing a character with reversals, you start reversing canned strings, and so on...

    So far, I dig it.
     
  5. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Some of my advice to the Tekken players...

    Learning to block is certainly a must since a good amount of frame advantage is gained from simply blocking.

    Learning how to poke with relative safely while knowing when to go back to defending is also pretty important. There's a LOT of initiative exchanging in VF. Some Tekken players make the mistake of thinking that the action is just a lot of attacking, but it's really a WHOLE LOT OF DEFENDING AND ATTACKING at a rapid pace. Scoring a hit doesn't finish the situation exactly, it just sets you up for something bigger usually.

    Realizing that all characters in VF can crouch dash (df, df) is beneficial after you are used to the moves. Once you get used to crouch dashing, you can get used to the timing of pre-buffering crouch dashes for modified moves so that you get from crouch moves that look like they're coming out of standing. The Tekken player will certainly know the benefits of this, though I can see some of them over-rating it a bit.

    Okizeme is different in the sense that very few things can hit a fallen opponent. If they just fell, you can do OTB (On The Bounce) combos, granted they don't tech roll or quick rise before or between the OTB hits. If they didn't Tech Roll or Quick Rise, your main alternative for attack is to use a ground attack. But, once they've chosen when and how they will get up, you can work around that to beat them down with good okizeme. Case in point: VF's okizeme is there and it is important, but it's also not as abusive as Tekken's okizeme system (but there's so many options you can do in VF's okizeme--SO MANY OPTIONS).

    Learning to counter in general is good, learning how to throw counter is definitely a good step forward. Figure out which moves you can block and input a throw immediately (right after you block the attack, while you're still in blockstun in VF4) to get a guaranteed throw. On the flipside, if you do an attack that is throw counterable, it might be a good time to learn how to escape throws and prebuffer those escapes. Refer to a VF4 faq about the "how to's."

    I imagine a lot of the Tekken players are pretty good with their spacing game, and applying proper countering when they are familiar with them. I advise you guys to work on the ticking aspect of the game, aka Poking, aka flowcharting. It's another big part of VF. Learn how to expand and use your attack options. Learn how to defend certain situations. Learn how to pick a defense that will cover most of the common attacks your opponent will throw at you, thus limiting their options (option select is an example of this). Learn how to work under heavy pressure, while being attacked, and while attacking.

    -Chanchai
     
  6. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Once you get used to blocking low moves, you make sure you know what FC move to follow up with.

    There are many good middle attacks you can punish crouching opponents with other than just FC/WS moves in VF.
     
  7. LemonMan

    LemonMan Active Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Fair enough. I'm partial to the FC moves given that I'm working on Akira and all. Blocked low sweeps and such really beg for the Shoulder Ram.
     
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    or spod em
    good fun~
    hehehehehe
     
  9. Triple Lei

    Triple Lei Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Yeah, that's another thing I noticed... there's no such thing as a cc (crouch cancel). Tekken has it, and Soul Calibur has it, but you wouldn't need it in VF. You would just be able to do standing moves from a crouching position, for the most part. That took me a while to get used to...
     
  10. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    there are some times when doing a standing move while crouched is impossible.. the big example is jacky' s low backfist (d/b+P) which must be done from standing.
    It takes half a second to stand, so if you want to do it immediately, you can do a forward dash and then quickly buffer the move. This cancels the crouch and allows the low backfist to come out rather than a low punch.
     
  11. LemonMan

    LemonMan Active Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Ah, a miscommunication.
    I meant that I found myself quickly looking for FC moves to use after I have blocked a low attack.
     
  12. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    I assume crouch cancelling means to quickly cancel the crouch state (stand up instantly)...

    As Creed was describing, quickly buffering dashes works for cancelling crouches. One thing I missed about the E-button in VF3 is how you could shed a frame or two in doing this (theoretically), and it was the lazy way to do it anyhow (tapping f+E or b+E to do a quick dash).

    Buffering a dash to perform a standing move from crouch helps a lot if you use a character like Lion if you want to use an elbow after blocking a low attack. In VF3 I would block the low attack, f+E, f+PP (followed by double low kicks otb). In VF4, I don't do this as much, but when I do it, I buffer in a back dash and quickly do f+PP.

    Maybe it was Ice that claimed you could do f+G to crouch cancel as well? Can't remember who mentioned that technique, but I haven't really tried it, dash buffering was sort of engrained in me at the time. Though I would hope f+G or b+G would work since it would fill in the holes that prebuffered VF4 dashes would have in this sort of function.

    -Chanchai
     
  13. Triple Lei

    Triple Lei Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Alright, well I guess it's a misunderstanding on my part. Though we all agree on what a crouch cancel is (and it seems the execution is the same), in VF, you could do a d+P, and then a standing P sans dash. But, the reason you would be able to do so is that there is no such thing as an FC+P (for Akira, anyway). Crouch cancels then would still be needed for multiple low attacks from a standing position.

    Myyyy mistake -_-;
     
  14. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Crouch Cancels & From Crouch Semantics

    All good, we didn't mean to show you up or whatever anyone would want to blow it out of proportion to. For me, I just felt this thread would be a great opportunity to clarify and discuss the small details that are different or the same with VF and other 3d fighters. So hope my lengthy explanation didn't rub you the wrong way, I don't try to carry an ill will or showoffy attitude by any means. And the same goes for what I'm gonna say in the next paragraph, I just think it's something that should be posted.

    There's a lot of concern over "While Standing" attacks for a lot of players coming in from Tekken. VF players acknowledge the WS attacks, and it's not that we don't know what they are. When we stress fc (from crouch), it's because it is important to know which moves can be performed from the crouching position, which can be performed from the standing position, and which can be performed from both positions (hence I wish movelists would mark these). The "While Standing" attacks in Tekken certainly are not the only attacks that can only work while crouched, right?

    So, for a person like me anyways, the semantics pickiness is in stressing that thinking about the state you are in as opposed to the execution of the move is more important. If a move can be done from crouch, it's a bit more important to me than if it can be done by crouching then getting the stick to a neutral position and inputting an attack button. Not to say that this is all you see, I am dead sure you understand what I'm talking about. Just that VF doesn't generalize the WS+attack that much (it's mostly Lau, Pai, and Vanessa), but there are a lot of important moves that can only be performed "from crouch only" or "from standing only" or "both."

    FC+P for Akira is a standing Jab if you let the stick go to neutral (which is what I assume you meant). But certainly there is FC, f+P; FC, b, f+P; FC, f+P+K; and even FC, d+K (noted as D+K on movelists). Another example is that Sarah's low kick can only be performed "from crouch."

    Crouch cancels are great for various low attacks, but I think especially for certain mid attacks that can only be executed from standing (hence my Lion example, f+P(stagger)P, d+KK was a very good Lion tool in VF3, if not a requirement).

    Anyways, again, this was just to bring out my perspective on the subject, not to upstage or discourage you/versus/images/icons/smile.gif As long as someone gets some productivity out of this, I think it's good/versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    -Chanchai
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: 'nother newb

    Though I would hope f+G or b+G would work since it would fill in the holes that prebuffered VF4 dashes would have in this sort of function.

    Yeah, it was me, but technically it should be a f,f to cancel, though f+G and b+G has worked fine for me.
     

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