Help with overall gameplay improvement needed

Discussion in 'Wolf' started by Unicorn, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    I will need a bit of help with wolf.
    I feel I get stucked in my habits. Some are good, but not best. Some are plainly BAD. But I can not find a way how to break them... I also feel my game is not improving at all. It becomes predictable and mainly - repetitive.
    I am basically just pressing my opponents with 6PP+K / throw / catchthrow mixups if I am on advantage; or on wake-up.
    If I hit 2P on MC or normal, I go for 6P/6K/throw mixup.
    If I successfully evade opponents attack, I go for PK (into basic mixup), or for 6PP+K.
    If I force whiff of an attack with backdash, I go for 46P into juggle (if they do not TR), or into basic mixup
    Only other things I am using is 62K (or the hop kick form) vs high attacks; 9P+K vs low attacks... and occasionally 6K+G vs P strings and 2K to finish.

    I feel bad, I feel stupid, I do not like my game. Not at all. But I am stucked in this and I feel like I can not overcome it ATM. I am seriously considering dropping Wolf because of this, because I picked him because I consider him to be fun. BUt with this stupid playstyle I can not get out from, he feels just stupid and boring [​IMG]

    1) what your doing after blocking low attack which is damn punishable? I can not get out of my Jeffry habit and I keep pressing 6K again and again, like a moron. Still, I do not know about any decent move I cna use in this situation
    2) any advices about basic nitaku mixups? What should I use instead of that 6P...?
    3) which moves should I incorporate into my game and why/how to use them?
    4) any overall advices?

    I am juts stucked and my game sucks [​IMG]
  2. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf

    It depends if you win or lose. If you win then it's definetly not you problem. If you lose you have to check your own replay and see what were the situations you didn't managed well.

    From what i see there are some big scenarios where you need to find your flow chart: neutral situation, advantage, distance, oki.

    Wolf has a really great oki gameplay with his throws and catches, his great mids ([3][K]+[G] is my favorite) and even his [6][6][P]+[K] that gives you a way to pressure an opponent who's turtling.

    Best way to get rid of a bad habits is fighitng offline with a friend who knows what he's doing.
    Otherwise try doing some room with people you know a lot and talk with them, once they know your habits they will start punishing them and you will be forced to change or die.
  3. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    This are definitelly great advices, thank you [​IMG]

    My only problem is that all other VF players from here around are pracitcing SF4 ATM, because there will be big tourney here in like 3 weeks. They are not playing any other game to "not loos the feeling."
    And outside of my country, all players I knew are out of VF now; while I did not find any better ones yet.

    About winning... Well, I am winning about 3/5 of my games. I am low level now (like 1kyu or so), because I was forced to start new account after my original one gets corrupted (and I do not remember the mail nor password it was registrated for that 6 years go). I am still trying to get games with players who are high enough in ranks, but... I can see my strategy is bad. It is working sometimes, sometimes I got kicked by someone... But no matter win or loose, I still see how bad (and boring) it is.
    And playing in a boring way is the worst thing I can do in any FG. I need to get over it, because as much as I like winning, fun is still much more important to me. And if I have no fun, there is no point in playing.

    Anyway, thank you a lot for your advices [​IMG] Shame you are not on PSN, I will like to play you in order to learn something [​IMG]
  4. EmX

    EmX Well-Known Member

    [6][P] is a 16 frame mid. It has good reach but the followups are a bit predictable and can be punished. The move also leaves you at -2 frames on normal hit, which makes it kinda iffy as a poke. It can be useful, but it's not a mid you want to rely on.

    In lieu of [6][P], I think [3][P] is the way to go. It still has great reach, it is 14 frames, even safer on block, and you still come out at +1 on normal hit.

    Screw hook is still a solid move, especially if you hit check it on counter hit. You are stuck with the whole -8 thing on block, but it is a great way of getting that knockdown into Wolf's mixups from their techroll. It's great for shutting down aggressive players that like to abare a lot. It is also a 14f mid, but it can be a lot harder to buffer.

    VS. techroll, there are a ton of options. If they're aware of wolf's options, they are going to be afraid of a throw. A lot of opponents online, however, like to attack as they get up to lazily circumvent this. The thing is, that opens them up to counter hits from just about any properly-timed move you put on them, including [3][K]+[G], which leads to half life and a really nasty setup afterward.

    If you're looking for a really safe option, a catch throw will cover their easy options of evading, freezing and blocking high or trying to attack, since catch throws can eat up attacks, unlike normal throws. I am pretty sure it's still susceptible to a low, but I'm not totally sure.

    So, this is about when they decide to start ducking, right? That's pretty good for Wolf still, as [4][K]+[G] puts them in the 3-way guess from neck clutch, or [3][3][P]+[K], any other mid, or even low throw if you're feeling bold, etc. If they get up and stay in a crouched state, there's a chance they will be able to see a move like [3][K]+[G], so it's important to find something they aren't looking for or can't react to.

    The key here is to keep them on their toes. Evading then using [P][K] to punish is great, it's a safe thing to do and leaves you at +4 (or I guess higher, since they will be sideturned?). But, if, say, you instead forgo the [K] and do a mixup from [P] alone, it creates a situation they aren't used to seeing, even if it's a common one. Not all opponents respond to this the same way, but the point is that the more moves you make viable vs. them, the more they have to account for while defending. You can apply this philosophy to what you're doing vs. their techroll as well, mindful of how they're defending and such.

    A lot of players are most afraid of Wolf's throws, but in getting up and having to deal with the other options, there is a time where they will freeze up and block high. I think of the obvious thing with Wolf -- the idea is you tend to take a little less damage than other characters, and your neutral game is less effective and a little less safe. The tradeoff is that each time you land a hit or a throw, the damage potential is very high, either from the move itself or from the knockdown (like screw hook). After getting in one of those hits, it can really open up the opponent because losing 40-50% of their lifebar it makes them want to adjust how they're playing. There's no bulletproof way of figuring out just how they are going to adjust, but observe their defense (or, if online, lack thereof) and try to stay a step ahead of that. It can be very intimidating with a character like Wolf.

    I also think ranked mode online does not really teach you "good habits", because a lot of the players do not know that what they're doing is unsafe. So, if you're at a level like mine (intermediate) and you see this a lot, you're looking for that. And then you play someone remotely good and it really sucks having to adjust. Getting off the plateau does kinda come down to the comp you play, because there are players that you can beat 100% of the time but are annoying/boring to play against because they don't understand the game and you learn nothing, hah.
  5. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf

    awesome post emx, altought you said:

    Catch throws have the unique ability to grab opponents while they are doing an attack. However the catches will lose against other throws.
    [9][P]+[G] or [6][6][P]+[G] is one of my favorite setup on oki, just choose the catch according to the position you need since [6][6][P]+[G] keeps you in closed stance and [9][P]+[G] leaves you in open.
  6. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    EmX/Mister/an other skilled Uruf player, is anyone from you from Europe and will anyone be willing to try to play with me a little?
    I am close to giving up Wolf. My W/L score is cca 5/3, but I feel my game sucks hard [​IMG] With your help, I managed to get some improvement, but it is still baaaad [​IMG]

    If anyone will be willing to give me a try, please PM me
  7. gns168

    gns168 Member

    Hi Unicorn, we saw each other a few times yesterday but we disconnected b/c of 1~2 bar connections.

    Picking up wolf after getting stuck with aoi so I understand what you are saying. I am not very good with him but would love to see if we can get some player matches going.

    Located in N.America though.

    psn: gns168, gns_168
  8. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf

    Unicorn i would like to give you some advice, but i'm a xbox user [​IMG] altought it's a good idea sometimes to take a break and try something else to improve your basics of the game. Wolf really shines when you have a great patience and when the opponent is waking up.
  9. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    I am trying to start Brad now. Hope that helps [​IMG]
    It is like... I can beat many of my opponents, but not because I am good with wolf. I get stucked with him and even when I am trying and working on ti, I can not get out of my bad patterns ATM.
    Only reason I am able to win most of my (winning) matches (I am trying to challenge higher-ranked players that I am, whenever possible) is not because I am able to play properly, but because back in my days I was working hard on my ability to read patterns and punish them...
    I feel bad [​IMG] I was so happy to find wolf for myself, and now this [​IMG]

    @gns168 I will gladly try it, please add me on PSN and today in night (after my work), I will try to catch you
  10. EmX

    EmX Well-Known Member

    I'm not really that good at all for similar reasons Unicorn. I understand why, that's not really the same thing as actually being good.

    Online it's just playing around all the gimmicks and punishable stuff noobs do. Not all that fun. I try to get ggs in sometimes but it's not nearly consistent enough.

    Does Chief Gutti still play wolf? I'm in the US so playing online is definitely iffy lag-wise.
  11. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    I do not know about Chief Gutti, to tell the true [​IMG]
    I maybe need to find someone good who will be generous enough to kick my ass repeatedly and add few advices [​IMG] I did the some for some decent Lion player from germany yesterday and I must say, after he get over his issues, he becomes pretty ill to fight against [​IMG]

    BTW, is there some "adapt your noob" and "adapt your average player" movement here on VFDC I am not aware about? [​IMG]
  12. Ash_Kaiser

    Ash_Kaiser Marly you no good jabroni I make you humble... Bronze Supporter

    Yeah, Gutti still plays Wolf, and he's a very solid player.
  13. Sorwah

    Sorwah Well-Known Member

    I don't know if anyone had trouble inputting BH or the F5. I'd constantly get confused on which way to do the 360 and getting accidental steps at times.

    I found that doing 741236 will give me BH, and 963214 will give me F5.

    This has helped me as I don't accidentally step and am able to think of it more of which half circle direction to go in.

    Sorry if this was already shared.
  14. EmX

    EmX Well-Known Member

    That is really useful to know, Sorwah. I had no idea.
  15. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    In last 14 days, I was doing my best to improve with Wolf. I was playing a lot ranked/room matches, I was watching videos, I was experimenting in dojo... There surely is some improvement, but I still have looong way to go.

    Anyway, I decide to make a summary of what I found and what I am trying to learn:
    * awesome anti-high; can be even used to interrupt in the mid of the strings!

    * it actually is great "safe" move - it push the opponent away from you
    * on MC, you are +7 on medium distance, and you can press the advantage from here
    * 3P+K into wall = profit [​IMG]

    * it is AWESOME move - 16 frames, -4 on guard only and big stagger on MC!
    * I still need to find how exactly incorporate the move in my game, when and where to use it

    [8][4][2][6] / [8][6][2][4] throws
    * I am missing the inputs for half circles only and this needs to be changed
    * this throws are incredibly strong (100 dmg is more that 99 % of your juggles)
    * I saw few pretty bad Wolf players on decently high ranks who get there ONLY by pressing the big dmg throw advanatge to the max!

    * I am starting to use this against P-stringers, it really works!
    * up to -7, you will get into their 12-frame P string

    * I was not giving enough credit to this move. I am starting now
    * SAFE on guard, AWESOME reach, halfcircle, BIG dmg on NH...
    * yes, it is slow... So I need to learn the proper distance and use it at length / when I expect throw / when I expect evade on proper side

    while descending [P]
    * this I have from one of that "high rank bad play" wolfs
    * good to mix with while descending [K] when they start ducking
    *-6 on G / low throw guaranteed on NH/MC!!! If you surprise them like this, you will get easy 98 dmg [​IMG]

    * it is risky, but catch backdashers / whifs nicely
    * the [6_][P] [1][P][+][K] etc "juggle" is great trap at the same time... if they roll and see you whiffing [P], they are often going to PUNISH you... Only to eat 1P+K as MC, because you still are at advantage [​IMG]

    general stuff:
    * I need to get better with hitchecking (2P into guard = I need to stop, not attack... no matter many people eat it)
    * I need to start properly using advantages (it is great to get 3x 2P as MC in a row, but 2P MC into 6K will be MUCH better dmg...
    * I need to work on my defense - especially fuzzy and evade cancel.
    * I NEED to start using lazy TE properly... I forget about them 95 % of times
    * I need to work more on my oki... it is not THAT bad ATM, but wolf can do much more
    * I need to use [6][2][4][P] more
    * I need to use catchthrows more, especially the "stance" ones

    And what I am not sure about
    * is RAW worth to use? Besides being flashy... You eat the dmg for 66 % chance to give them some dmg back... And if they string into RAW, you eat dmg and get nothing...
    * is 46P+K worth the risk to throw out here and there?
    * which other moves to incorporate in my game on regular basic

    Hope this can help someone else

    PS: thanks to all wolf players who play with me in ranked / rooms and helped me!
  16. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf

    Ok unicorn, glad to see you'r getting confident with wolf's arsenal. I just want to add some tips.

    [3][K]+[G] it's great not only as half circular but in the oki situations. While your opponent is waking up your opponent has to chose to attack or guard. If they attack they will eat the MC of this kick and then eat a combo. If they guard you have 2 catch throws and a lots of throw to make them whish they attacked.

    [​IMG][3][P] great after a [2][P] landed. Altought i use it even after a block, because some people tend to use slow things to attack you. Another way to use it is buffer a crouch dash then use it when the high punch whiffs.

    When you say you have to stop doing attacks after a [P] that's not correct. You are +2 after a punch blocked (universal for every character). Buffering a command like:
    [P]~[G] -> 14 mid attack it's a good thing to do against spammers. And only good players will fuzzy in that situation and if they do you may still use a low throw to outsmart them.

    Keep up the good work and keep posting your impressions.
  17. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    Timing of this kick as oki is one of the things I am working on right now
    Great tips, thank you!
    Yeah, I know. It was a typo and it is corected ATM, but you read my post before I made this change [​IMG]
    2P is what I mean. 2P on guard.
  18. gns168

    gns168 Member

    Thanks for summarizing unicorn. Trying to put some of the stuff you mentioned in my game as well.

    Look forward to our next session
  19. Unicorn

    Unicorn Well-Known Masher Content Manager Wolf

    unicorn cz
    I have done a little testing about staggers and come with following...

    There are 3 usefull staggering moves - [6][K][+][G] / [​IMG][3][P] MC / [P][+][K]: max charge
    * if opponent do not know how to unstagger, use [4][6][P][+][K] against everyone up to Jean - 20 frames juggle starter for BIG damage; on heavier ones, you can eventually go for [3][K][+][G] (24 frames tough) (123 max dmg from 6P+K / 117 dmg)
    * if opponent do know how to unstagger shomehow, go for [6][K] (17 frames) juggle (94 for standard juggle, 106 for max dmg)
    * you can also go for [​IMG][3][P] > [P] > [1][P][+][K] > [6][2][4][P][P] for 102 dmg for anyone up to Goh, if I remember correctly. It is 16 frames,, +1 for buffering [​IMG]
    * if 17 frames is still slow, you can go for 16 frames - [6][P] > any juggle for [6][K] (90+ dmg)

    just FYI from what I tested [​IMG]
  20. EmX

    EmX Well-Known Member

    Nothing is guaranteed after [6][K]+[G] and [​IMG][3][P]'s staggers if they recover properly (a lot of people don't, so might be worth checking them with [6][P] to crumple, hah). It's a pretty good situation to mix up in since you have a lot of time to do a move while they're staggered.

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