Help with Shun

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

SMOKE POT

 

270s

Regarding the Zangief note, I'm a recent SF convert, too, and the grapplers were my favorites in SF.

From my VF newbie experience, I don't think the 270s of VF can really be compared to those of SF. First, in SF, you can't grab on a block/hit stun. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in VF, you can. That's a huge difference. Also, since pushing u does not make you automatically jump, the 270s are a lot easier to do in VF than in SF.

That said, question: can you buffer in a 270 in a crouching dash? I'm trying to emulate the roll->spd type of techniques of CVS2 into VF4. And since Shun appears to have such a nice arrange of crouching moves...

 

Re: 270s

Yes, you can buffer the 270 from the crouch dash.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

I really suck so whenever I do the mule kick followed by d/f+P,P,K I just get spinning elbow drop. I've pulled off the d/f+P,P,K a few times but 95% of the time I just do the down attack. Any hints on pulling this off? Even in the slow-mo training mode either I hit the d/f+P to early and it never gets executed or I hit it (I assume) too late and it does the spinning elbow drop.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Buffer trick (or feature) when encountering potential down attacks:

-hold df soon after the mulekick in this case. Essentially, you end up with u+K --> DF+P,P,K.

You want to have df already held down before you recover from the mulekick (or even chouwan and chouwan backfist or any move really) and end up tapping P as DF is held.

This is the same case for Lau, Sarah, Jacky, etc... when doing sidekick floats and Lion tagging on df+PP (peck) in combos.

Basically... if your character is standing, and your opponent is floating after you performed a move, as long as df is held down and your character is still standing (thus hold df starting from the recovery of your attack), down attack inputs will not count as down attacks, but rather df+P or df+K.

-Chanchai

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Hey all... just thought I'd add my shun experiences to the thread.

As far as drinking after the round goes, I've found it easy to get 6 drinking points if you kill your opponet with a quick move (ie: a high punch) and then quickly lie down and you'll have time for two drinks. This also works well if you kill your opponet with a drunken stance kick, then you can simply hit up or down to lie down, then drink away. Does anyone know of a way to get more than 6 drinking points off of a normal KO (ie: not a move that has drinking points tacked on to it). I havn't had much time exploring drinking after ring outs, but there's a lot more time than after a KO, so I'd imagine you could get somewhere between 7-9.

Also, I don't see why to stop at a given number of drinks. When I play I drink whenever I can. It's that shun is the only character in VF4 that, when the next round starts, he can have a powerup from the previous round. This feature in it's own I find very fascinating, and offers shun some opportunities no one else has.

For instance, suppose you've had a bad round and your opponet has all but finished you off, but then backs away from his attack in fear of a d/f+p+g throw or other means of ring out. You can sit there by the side of the ring and drink until he decides to make a move. And rest assured, he will. No one else has the ability to force an opponet to get on the offense.

One thing I've fooled around with is whenever I score a knockdown (d/b+k,k for instance), instead of pressing the mind game when my opponet tries to wake up, I'll step back and take a drink. He gets up for free, but I also get a drink, and after awhile it starts to get annoying, having a shun who backs away to take instead of pressing the attack.
Or if you want to try to punish the quick roll and he just lies there, or if you've hit him with a pounce, I've found that using b+p+k+g to dodge out of the way of his rising attack so it whiffs and getting a drink in. I wonder if b+p+k+g gives you move backward distance than a backdash or a backward CD...

Something I've noticed that works well for me is d/f+p,p,k,p+k+g, and then hand-stand kicks. This works when your opponet sees you go into handstand and tries to attack. For some reason the handstand kicks seem to have a decent priority over a lot of counter-attacks.

One of the moves I've found most useful with shun is d/b+k,k. It knocks down, hits low, comes out extremley fast, and you can fall down if it's blocked. Something I've found that works is if I whiff the d/b+k,k on purpose and fall to the floor. Many opponets go for the jumping pounce, and if you mash fast enough, you can usually avoid this and score a counter attack.
This move (as far as I can tell) is one of the best low attacks in the game. Most low attacks are punishable if blocked (and don't give good frame advantages if they hit), but this one knocks down if it connects. Also, it's probablly one of the fastest low attacks that I know of, and I don't think it's possible to block on sight. Instead, your opponet will have to know when your going to do it, and once you've got him blocking low you can go for the sidekick stagger & go from there. I wonder if there is anything better to do than a sidekick when you know they're gonna duck... any ideas?

As far as throws go, am I the only one who think Shun has one of the hardest throwing games to use? I mean, he's only got 3 different throw directions (normal, back, and d/f), so in theory, your opponet could buffer in all the throw escapes. And his b+p+g and d/f+p+g throws can only seem to do decent damage once he's drunk enough.
Something fun to do is to do his b+p+g throw, and if your opponet counters it, shun ends so far away you can take a drink. I've only done this once or twice so I'm not sure if it's punishable or not, but so far it seems a decent way to put a positive spin on having your throw countered.
One of the reasons I think his throwing game is weak is because I havn't had that much time to experiment with his d/f+p+g and b,d/f+p+g throws. Is there any difference between these throws besides the damage inflicted by the second? Is there anything guaranteed after either of them? I reread this thread before posting and I didn't remember reading anything about anything guaranteed...
After 10 drinks his 270 throw is his strongest (with awesome damage and drinking points to boot.) I'd highly recommend going from down to back instead of up to back. Too many times I've tried going u,f,d,b and end up going into stance. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

Does anyone know the exact number of drinking points where p,p,d+k,k becomes a true combo and where the d+k,k of it becomes unblockable after the first punch? Something I noticed that the computer did (only once I think) was that he dodged the d+k,k in that combo when I had enough points to make it unblockable, even after the first blocked punch. I've never had a human try it though, I'm not sure if my timing was off, or if that really is a way to get out of the seemingly unblocking d+k,k...

Something I've noticed (but I'm not sure if it's true or not) is that if the low punch in the k,k,d+p,k combo hits, the final handstand kick will also hit. Is this true or just my imagination? If so, this could open up some nasty mindgames after the k,k (ie: low, or guard-cancle into a mid?)

Something I need to experiment more with floats after d/f+p,p (that floats when he is drunk enough, and I think it might have to be a counter...) of course d/f+p,p,k is guaranteed on the float, but since you knock them up nice and high, there could be a better way to punish them...

One point I feel I should mention, even though it's an anti-shun strategy. Just as you can drink after KO, if your opponet KOs you they can hit you with sobering moves and you'll loose your drinking points. I've never seen anyone do this on purpose, but if they start to, and you feel like you might loose the round, you could just lie of the floor and take a sip, that way when they hit you with a low kick, you just stay down and they can't hit you with anything sobering. Of course, winning the round is more important than that one drinking point, so if you still have a chance you should pry still go for it.

On tech rolling: I havn't found many good ways to punish tech rolls. The best I've done so far is d/b+k,k cause it seems to eat any attack your opponet might try after the tech roll. Of course, they'll start to block, or could dodge, so does anyone out there have a better option?

f+p+k seems good against throw attempts and punches. (probablly common knowledge, but even so...)

In conclusion, I'd have to say that I think the key to shun is drinking. Well, you'd probablly say "duh", but I mean drinking alot. At zero drinks I'd say he's relativley underpowered, but once he gets drunk enough he's insane. And as I said before, he's the only person in VF4 that you can sort of "power-up" manually, or who starts at an advantage for the next round based on your performence during the previous round. What I'm saying is that in a game like CVS2, you could store your super meter up for the whole fight, but in VF each round starts fresh. Except for shun. And you have to use that to your advantage.
You might say "well, a good opponet won't let you get that drunk." Well, he might try, but it's your job as a shun player to be better than your "good opponet" and get drunk off your ass. You can use drinking to lure an opponet in if he's turtling, as a kind of taunt, or as an option if your not good at punishing tech rolls or wakeups. When I play shun, I don't set a goal of 8 points of 10 points or whatever. I feel shun is at a real disadvantage during matches where it's only best 2/3 instead of 3/5 just cause that means less drinking. When shun is sober I find that, at least for me, he's really hard to use. But once more of his options open up, especially when you get to the point where p,p,d+k,k is a true combo, things get really nasty. Hope I was of at least some help to the shuns of the world...

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Hm.....

In reply to :
You can sit there by the side of the ring and drink until he decides to make a move. And rest assured, he will. No one else has the ability to force an opponet to get on the offense.

Unless you are really far away, otherwise experienced player will come to your face with a d+K, and a pounce is confirmed after d+K. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

In reply to :
Something I've noticed that works well for me is d/f+p,p,k,p+k+g, and then hand-stand kicks. This works when your opponet sees you go into handstand and tries to attack. For some reason the handstand kicks seem to have a decent priority over a lot of counter-attacks.

Although it does have a priority, but it is only useful when opponents never see your moves before. There is a little delay before the kick comes out, not immediately after handstand. Experienced players will d+K you before your handstand kick can come out. After d+K, pounce is also confirmed. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

In reply to :
One of the moves I've found most useful with shun is d/b+k,k. It knocks down, hits low, comes out extremley fast

I agree with you. This is a very good and effective move, hits low while standing up. Hard to block. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

In reply to :
and you can fall down if it's blocked. Something I've found that works is if I whiff the d/b+k,k on purpose and fall to the floor. Many opponets go for the jumping pounce, and if you mash fast enough, you can usually avoid this and score a counter attack.

Experienced players will not go for the high pounce, instead they will go for a fast pounce. Don't think can escape the fast pounce. Even if just the small damage pounce, it's also a free damage points for opponents. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

In reply to :
As far as throws go, am I the only one who think Shun has one of the hardest throwing games to use? I mean, he's only got 3 different throw directions (normal, back, and d/f), so in theory, your opponet could buffer in all the throw escapes.

This.....I must agree with you. /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

You seems to place too much emphasis on drinking. And this is bad.
Think about this :
When you meet opponent like Sarah and Vanessa, they will reduce your Dps more quickly than you even know. Then what can you do? Nothing much if you rely on drinking. Even if your opponents are other characters, they can always make you sober. My advice to you is don't even think about drinking to survive in any conditions. (Drunken or sober) Without your drinks, opponents will be impressed.

Plus I am a SOBER Shundi player. Dps to me is just a bonus instead of a neccessity. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You can sit there by the side of the ring and drink until he decides to make a move. And rest assured, he will. No one else has the ability to force an opponet to get on the offense.

<hr></blockquote>
Kage executes f,f+p+k+g or f,f+k+g with kage -> RING OUT! /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
Kage player says woot!! thx for letting me win /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
Shun player says i will never do that again... where is the wall when you need one!!! /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


As far as throws go, am I the only one who think Shun has one of the hardest throwing games to use? I mean, he's only got 3 different throw directions (normal, back, and d/f), so in theory, your opponet could buffer in all the throw escapes.


<hr></blockquote>
[MT]Vanessa is just as bad....

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

In reply to
Does anyone know the exact number of drinking points where p,p,d+k,k becomes a true combo and where the d+k,k of it becomes unblockable after the first punch?

You need 26 DP to make it a true combo, but as for unblockable d+kk after blocking first punch, I don't know.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

I have been playing as Shun Di for about a month now, and I just thought I would add in my 2 cents...

I agree that I like to try and stay focused on learning to be a sober Shun... not only does this force me to work harder (thus hopefully making me a better Shun player in the end), but if I don't rely on drink moves as much, when I do actually use them, then they are that much more of a surprise. The trick for me so far is to just not rely on any set of moves... I try and keep mixing things up all the time to surprise my opponents. Shun does have a good assortment of moves, and I try and use this to his advantage.

One move that seems to be very effective though (at least for me) is his Sidestep counter (sidestep -> P+K+G). It is fast, does decent damage, they can't techroll or quick get up out of it (I think) and it is mid. It also seems to have fairly good priority. This is probably the only move that I use multiple times in a round.

I love plaing as Shun, as I think he is one of the most unique characters I have ever played in a fighting game before.

OooK

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Hm.....

Here are what opponents can do when you use d/b+K, K, G.
(xx) refers to the damage points caused by the moves.

Akira :
Body check (20-33)
Axe blade combo (27)

Pai :
Low kick, sweep (20)
Sweep (25)

Lau :
Double low kick (10)
Knifehand (22)
Lunging sweep (25)

Wolf :
Somersault drop (16)
Step hammer (25)
Front roll kick (30)

Jeffry :
Low kick (20)
Ducking low (21)
Toe kick (24)
Hammer down (25)
Heel attack (30)

Kage :
Sliding tackle (19)
Backheel sweep (20)
Low heel thrust (21)
Dragon punch (30)
Inverted kick flip (35)
Kick flip (38)

Vanessa :
Stopping low (17)
Low spin slicer (24)

Sarah :
Double low kick (17)
Leg slicer (20)
Low spin kick (20)
Somersault kick (38)

Jacky :
Punch low spin kick (20)
Slant low spin kick (20)
Double low kick (22)

Shun :
Low kick (10)
Spinning low kick (10)
Uppercut (17)
Slow sweep (20)

Lion :
Turning sweep (20)
Sweep (24)
Lunging sweep (24)
Double jumping kick (30)
Half-moon kick (35)

Aoi :
Low kick (12)
Knee (20)
Sweep (20)
Back heel thrust (25)
Hip break (25)

Lei :
Low kick (18)
Sweep (20)
Double leg hopkick (20)
Handspring kick (21)
Falling sweep, ground kick (30)

This is not a complete list because I am not familiar with every characters' moves. But it gives you a rough idea how opponents can punish you. All these have been tested and the damage points are those from the PS2 VF4. Some of the damage points are different from the movelists like Lion's double jumping kick.

Plus : I got the names of these moves from each character's version C movelist in VFDC. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Hey all again...

Yea, I'd say I'm not playing against the most experienced of players, so that's where my experiences come from.

I do rely on drinking alot, maybe a little too much, but I really believe it is (at least in some part) necessary more than just a bonus. I suppose I would play a more effective Shun if I could play better Sober. I'll freely admit that if the first round ends and I'm still around 0 drinking points or so I'll get a negative outlook for the outlook for the rest of the fight, and having a negative outlook isn't helpful at all. In the same token though, if your shun is nice and toasted and your up in rounds, your opponet might start to feel less confident in his chances to win.

In defense of drinking though, it's benefits are too great to be ignored. I don't think I could play a "sober shun plus benefits", just cause if I were to play a sober shun, I'd fare a lot better with one of the other characters. As such, drinking plays a big part in my game.
There arn't any other shun players around here so I don't have experience trying to sober a shun up, so I don't know how much potential sarah and vanessa have at doing so. I'd imagine that there's a chance that their sobering moves arn't the most damaging, and if that is the case, then they might begin to trade damage to sober you up.
And your not always going to be playing against someone with as many options as they have to sober you up. If you take the time to drink, your oppnet will have to take the time to counter act it or pay the price, no matter who he is playing as. If he doesn't, you get drunk. If he does, then you've got your oppnet off his normal game plan and into a "I've gotta sober shun up" gameplan.
And either way, in the end, I believe that if you play a better shun than your opponet does their character, then you can get a decent amount of drinks under your belt. Of course lying down in the heat of the fight to take a drink isn't the best idea, but if you can sneak relativley safe drink in every now and then, it's a good way to not only get drunk, but frustrate your opponet. Even though all of this is easier said than done...

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Sarah's d/f+p,k(exec at 12 frames) goes into stance and takes away 2 drink points. f+p, d/f+p hits mid and takes away 1 drink point also. d/b+k+g takes away 1 drink point and recovers at -5frame. All this moves takes drink points easily and can't be thrown. I don't think doing this moves take away the damage potential in sarah. And besides that, sarah's air combo use d/f+p,k too.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

Vannessa [MT] f+P+K reduces Shun's drinking points and is actually quite damaging since [MT] f+P+K can be followed up with [MT] f+P,P,K.
Not to mention with Van's combo [MT] f+P+K, f+P+K (Reducing Shun's dps Twice!)

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

An experienced player(Enough experiences fighting Shun), always maintain the distance just enough to make Shun's attacks whiff and enough time to counter attack when Shun drinks therefore I could never P+K+G or even sit/lie down to drink. My best bet to get drinks is
1. if they are knocked down,
2. At the end of winning round,
3. throws(execute it smartly as my opponent ETEG, DTEG perfectly),
4. after float+ df+p,p,k,p+k+g -> roll to lie down stance -> drink.
5. u+K+G -> f+P+K (Decided that it is worth the risk where you are in dire situation of needing dps as normal drinking becomes harder)
6. sacrifice drinking i.e. lie down straight away as soon as you noticed reasonable distance with your opponent -> drink.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

There were some questions earlier in the thread asking about Shun's Sabaki capabilities. In doing research to compile errata for his Version C Command List thread, I came across some related observations that I will repeat in here for possible feedback and wider dissemination. First of all, concerning Shun's db+P+K: It's not simply a Sabaki vs. midlevel attacks. It specifically is a Sabaki vs HP, HK, HE, EL, SK, MK, and KN attacks. Also, I believe his d+P+K+G Drunken Walk Right is surprisingly an Inashi vs HP, MP, EL, HE, SK, MK, KN, LP, and LK attacks! Check it out, and tell me what you think. Further, his back turned P+K+G "L-Shaped Attack" can score two hits (the first midlevel, and then a high one), and I reported in the errata thread that I think the first hit can Sabaki any attack type in the game (including irreversible attacks). It consists of a simultaneous elbow and foot strike (from opposite sides of Shun's body), thus being able to affect hits at different levels. Again, check it out and give your opinion.

Also, the question was asked if the u+K and u+K+G are really different or not. The Command Training mode of the PS2 VF4 game can be used to verify they are different moves.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

does anyone have any really good mid air juggles? i've been trying but only have found a few. and the ones in training mode.

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

does anyone have any really good mid air juggles?

Shun has a lot of variety with mid-air combos.

Mulekick combos:
++-> ++-good for drinks, but Shun can be punished by techrollers
++-> -> +-the first punch is optional since it doesn't hit, but I use it to help me with the timing
++-> +-requires at least 8dp
++-> |+++-> +-> +-if opponent does not techroll, add on +
++-> |+++-> +-hard to connect with every hit if opponent techrolls
++-> +-> +-my timing is off on this one, and will miss if the opponent techrolls
++-> +

Chouwan combos:
+-> +->+
+-> +-requires 8dps
+-> +->+
+-> +-> +-I think this is good on lightweights only, hard to hit with midweights
+-> +-the timing is difficult
+-> +-> +-> +-the timing is difficult
+-> +-> +

+-> +-> +-requires a counterhit
+-> +- may miss heavyweights
+-> +-> +-requires a counterhit


I read most of these on Overweight BBS. I've tried them all. A lot of them are style combos, and a few are damaging. Some of his combos are weakened because of techrolling. /versus/images/icons/mad.gif

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

I'd like to chime in here with a few observations of my own, considering Shun is now my "other" main character aside from Kage, obviously.

The Dodge Cartwheel Attack--
I used to be a huge fan of this move... especially in Kumite since the CPU rarely punishes it. But in PvP battles, smart players can punish you BAD if they block it. IE, Pai can then pounce for free. Instead I now use the dodge followed by + or throw (if I dodge something with recovery) or buffered chouwan etc. If the cartwheel actually hits though, I've found that + (forward cartwheel) connects if they don't tech. Then a + down hit connects since the forward version pins them down.

Punishing Techrolls--
As always, low sweeps or crescents are always good at tracking techrollers who hold guard during the animation. For Shun, I simply use ++ sweep since it can't be sidestepped (lots of folks like to dodge after techroll to avoid rush-ins) and can hit before they can guard if your timing is right. Get your low throw escapes ready tho if they get lucky and block it and play Aoi, etc.

Using to Set Up Stuff--
I don't abuse this since it's safe to duck Shun's mixups from these until he can manage the mule kick on the end, but... I noticed the punch (high or low) both have really good recovery, so good that it appears deceptively slow... I use this to set up throws or a dodge if I expect a retaliation. Usually after I throw after several times until they start attacking back... so I dodge it. Again I only throw this out at unexpected times.

Wall Combos--
Has anyone else researched these? I've found that there are several really nasty combos you can do in a corner situation. (* Asterisk means techable after this point)
Start with a decent wall stagger (either + or +),
++ to float them into the wall,
1) *, + (delay sweep to catch techrolls)
2) +
3) +
4) +*, ++,

That's all I have for now... btw I love the idea of using the ++ escaped throw to set up drink points. Great stuff!

 

Re: [VFDC CHOICE] Help with Shun

if you want to do shun's move than just do his normal throw and then when they get up from that they are totally vulnerable and you can take your time while they are getting up to get the move right...i'd say if your right handed always go for it when they land on your right side, opposite for left handers...if you haven't known already go into his laying down stance where he can still take drinks and stuff...god i wish i could remember that, and when you have 10 drinks press the computer always falls for it, i just wish human opponents were that dumb