High, Mid, Low blocking - A different approach

This is something that's been on my mind for a while. Just needed some place to put it up.

We've been playing fighting games for a few decades now, and the genre has made some giant steps forward in that time. However, one of the problems with a genre that's been around so long is that in making new fighting games, people mostly want to build on systems that have already been established. All of the more serious games we see today, 2D or 3D, are built on ideas from previous fighting games, and along the way, many developers have stopped looking at real life fighting arts for system inspirations. Sure, they sometimes take inspiration from real life arts for move set animations, but I believe that from a system standpoint there is much more that hasn't been explored.

Here's where I'd like to bring in 2 old and obscure titles to illustrate an alternate look at the high, mid, low guessing game. In most fighting games, we've become accustomed to the standing and crouching guard. What these two games which I am bringing up use is a high, mid and low guard system.



The first is the 2 player mode from the old 80's NES game Musashi No Ken, based on the anime/manga of the same name. Anime based games in general tend to be rather rushed in development and of mediocre quality, and this one is no different. However, the 2 player mode of this one is a rare gem with some nice fighting mechanics. The original manga is also a very good read.

You have high, mid and low stances, which actually correspond to real Kendo stances, Joudan, Chuudan and Waki Gamae. Holding up puts you in Joudan, neutral puts you in Chuudan and holding down puts you in Waki Gamae. You can move forwards or backwards in any stance, and each stance automatically blocks ALL attacks at that height, even if you are in attack animation. Switching stances is practically instant, so it's fairly easy to block any telegraphed attack.

Think of it. Every stance in every martial art has built in guarding. The peek-a-boo stance in boxing already has an automatic guard for straight punches to the chin so that just by standing in neutral stance, you protect yourself in at least a few vital areas. It's silly that your neutral stance in games blocks absolutely nothing. Tekken had the right idea in this area by adding auto standing guard in neutral.

Back to Musashi No Ken, any attack at any other height(2 out of 3) results in a one hit kill, and the winner gets 1 point as per Kendo competition rules. First to get 2 points wins. Turtling is risky because if you get pushed out of the ring, your opponent gets 1/2 a point which puts you behind, and you will lose when the time runs out if you can't score more points than the opponent.

So it's a rock, paper, scissors guessing game. Doesn't sound like that much skill involved until you add the attack system. Tap attack to do a quick short strike, and hold it down to extend your range in a slower strike. Because you return to stance the moment you let go of the attack button, this effectively lets you feint any move you want, just like tapping G during an attack does in Last Bronx.

Each character also has a special attack, which tends to be a super fast max range strike at a particular level, usable only a certain number of times. Thus, part of the strategy of this game is knowing which special strike your opponent's character is packing, and being ready to guard against it, because the special strikes are practically instant.

The main part of the game is then getting the spacing(zoning) absolutely perfect, stepping in just as your opponent whiffs his move, so you can nail him with your special, or intentionally stepping in to get him to waste his special by showing a fake opening, or throwing out a max range strike for him to walk into etc. You can also rush into close range where practically any strike is hard to see coming, making the guessing game more intense. This is all actually very close to a real Kendo match.

For martial arts fanatics, the striking points in the game are all legitimate Kendo striking points. Men-uchi for the head, Tsuki for the thrust to the throat, and Dou-uchi for the strike to the abdomen.

As you can see from the video, the format is 5 v 5 teams in blind select, so there is also a bit of strategy in where you want to place your stronger or weaker characters too.

The level of play in the video is not high level play. In fact I don't think there ever was any for this game.



The next game that uses this high, mid, low blocking system is Chatan Yara Kushanku - The Karate Tournament, an old arcade game from the 90's. This game featured rotoscoped animations based on real Karate stances and exercises. In fact the name of the game is the name of a Karate kata. They have however added some ridiculous moves in there as well.

This one features 6 bars of life for each character, and each hit takes off 1 bar. However, being hit 2 times in a row quickly, or being hit while in mid air results in a knockdown, which takes off half the total amount of life, meaning scoring 2 knockdowns is a win, just like the point system in Kendo and Karate.

This game has an attack button and a jump button. The attacks can't be feinted like in Musashi No Ken, but the jump button allows you to quick step and jump over low attacks, and some moves allow you to duck high attacks. The downside of the jump is that many jump moves leave you completely unguarded. You can also do special moves by hitting both buttons simultaneously. These tend to be horribly telegraphed with an obvious startup animation, but all are double hit, meaning a quick knockdown if they connect.

As you can see, the little additions to the game have added a new level of depth to it. The game was a flop however, because SF2 had already come out, and against a game with 8 selectable characters and 4 unique bosses, here was one that had basically the same guy in different colours as EVERY character in the game.

So what makes these 2 games so great compared to all these newer more flashy games? Something very simple - The ability to block while moving forward.

So many times in Street Fighter, you just know Chun Li's gonna do her heavy punch on you if you step forward an inch, but you can't even parry it because you just stepped forward and hitting forward again will result in a quick step animation into her fist.

The traditional block system allows people to poke with just 1 good move, over and over and over again. If you're able to block while moving forward though, this means someone can't keep you out with just that 1 move, encouraging them to mix it up.

It also means you're assured of being able to block at least 1 good move of your opponent's when you're on the offensive. A lot of turtling in games is due to the fact that holding forwards on the joystick means "I can't block anything now." Taking that away should encourage more aggressive and thus more exciting playstyles.

Also, no more of this "Just block low and watch for the slow overhead startup animation." Blocking becomes more risky when you have 3 options to worry about rather than 2. On the other hand the odds for attacking are a lot better, so that encourages more offensive playstyles too. Lastly, good Yomi becomes even more obvious and effective as a psychological threat.

Do note of course, this is not yet taking throws into account, since these games have no throws.


Here's hoping we'll see more fighting games built upon some alternate fighting systems.

 

Myke I definitely agree with you on the low attacks. I will say that lows are just about as deadly in 3d fighters as they are in 2d fighters, they just play differently imo. In Tekken for instance, you can get about a good 10 high level matches, and a good portion of them might very well end in a low poke, because most times people feared throws, but didn't want to get launched or hit with an overhead when they ducked, and throw breaking might be as reliable at times, so they stayed standing. I remember the days of TTT even, where I would constantly rush down with Nina and doing d+4,3 because my opponents consistently worried about overheads and launchers, and weren't too focused on lows (even though low parries were in the game). Or even in some cases, people got caught up with fast mixups, that the slow Snake Edge that Bryan Fury would do would actually catch people off guard, and that of course led to some crazy damage.

If Soul Calibur introduced a 3 point blocking system, I think it would make for a more strategic game. I mean there's already ring outs, and some other things that force the opponent to think about what they're doing and where they're at on the stage. I think this would change the parry system to that of DOA though in terms of having more points of parrying.

I don't think having a 3 point blocking system would fair well for VF imo. It might end up being more like UFC and might get rejected even further, seeing as the FG community as a whole views those games as sports games and not fighters. It's already a fast game if you know what you're doing, so newcomers won't necessarily see that, because when they play the game it might play out slower than normal. Adding 3 point blocking would slow the game even further I think, making it more difficult for one to actually get into it.

 

Sound good el but.. I remember somebody once told me that VF is all about "Knowing" When i researched this thought i came up with a logical conclusion. VF allows for people to have more Winning options rather than losing options. I figured this out once i learn with Special highs were. Why did they decide to go this route? Because Defense should'nt be a toss up because of the characters having guessing game options all the time. In DOA every combo has 3 directional enders and each of them are powerful so if you guess wrong you will get punished heavily. MostNamco fighters have 2 options that can't be avoided in every game especially if they are supposed to mix up most of the time. Low->Mid or Low->Low. VF does away with this because it leads to a guessing game rather than knowing how. So it throw out the logic that somebody really knows how to play Defense.

 

I disagree with you Myke. VF5R/fs crouching punch looks and seems more understandable for a fight. I mean understand how damging a punch to the shin/thigh can be Let alone a well place shin kick.

 

There is nothing natural at all about sitting on your ass and punching people on their thighs in a real fight. Get real.

 

I think the crouch as represented in fighting games NEEDS to come out. It looks beyond silly to simply retarded.

 

Well im talking about in a video game.. Fuck you mean get real Kiwe. Its a video game. anything else you mights as well go play ufc. Wow this is weird. Now all of sudden crouching in 3-D fighters looks stupid. no wonder sega don't find the outside world worthy of a new VF SMH!!! Carry on. There's is no hope for this topic. I guess this is whats left when there is no new VF.

 

This is probably the best thread I've ever read on VFDC!

I love the idea of a new 3 point blocking system fighting game actually. There are obviously flaws due to turtle styles in fighting games today, and, as you said, it is obvious in a game such as 3s where you cannot move forward and protect yourself against strong pokes such as Chun's B+HP (which then hit confirms into her super) as the parry attempt would result in a dash.

Also I do agree that the idea of squatting down and punching the knee caps seems extremely stupid for a fighting game - especially when said move is the very thing which determines what setups are viable and how your offence flows. I never really thought of in an aesthetic sense as I've always viewed VF more as a "what move can beat what moves in this relative advantage/disadvantage" rather than "look at what is actually on the screen"

Maybe could remain in the game but become nerfed? For example from anything lower than +3 advantage a would beat Sarah's "quick knee" move when obviously the knee should really follow through and catch the opponent flush in the face. Do you guys think that Mid Knee class moves and maybe even Elbows could have an anti- sabaki effect which would occur 1 or 2 frames into the momentum of the move? (For example, the time in which after lifts her leg, pulls back the knee and then during the time in which she makes a mid thrust could act as anti )?

I know what I'm proposing may sound quite counter productive to making the yomi better, but ask yourself this: If you're in the process of thrusting your knee into somebody's face will a short jab be enough to stop your motion?

 

Fuck me? Not without dinner and a movie first - I'm a good girl. Now here's a quote from your first post:

You were talking about it being applicable in real life, sorry. But that's understandable; I for one always go into fights with the intent of landing that first, good, clean, thigh punch myself.

P.S; Cheer the fuck up.

 

I think KiwE wins.

 

I think your a dickrider.. Second in the end nobody wins when your arguing about landing a fucking punch to the shin or thigh.

 

is there no thread here that can be safe from derail?

let's move past the BS and focus on actual ideas.

 

Fuck you for ruining the fun

 

This looks like a good idea to me. Probably because the timing to outbeat with an elbow online can be off and turn playable matches into hell. In 5R and 5FS most characters have a low punch sabaki though so it wouldn't be needed there.

 

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll just add my ideas about the different points raised.

Just a note though, I'm not suggesting we adopt all these ideas in VF. I'm just putting them out there as ideas for furthering the fighting genre in general.

Crouching
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Crouching is a valid tactic against high attacks and should have a place in fighting games. However, I think one of the best ways to handle excessive crouching is through the offensive movelist.

An example in 2D games is Elena in 3rd Strike. People tend to standing guard against Elena because she has a fair number of overheads and mids which can be hit confirmed into super, but of her low hitting attacks, they all do light damage and none of them can even be cancelled into super except low light kick. Even then, low light kick can't even link into itself, and it's too fast to hit confirm so if you want to cancel to super you have to just throw it out and hope the opponent isn't blocking - very high risk.

VF handles this fairly well compared to other games since a lot of low attacks are low return in terms of damage and mostly unsafe on block, or even disadvantageous on hit. On the other hand, you've got many characters with nice mids which can lead to frame advantage or good damage. Basically, give people fewer reasons to crouch by making the movelist have lots of strong mids and other moves that break crouch guard - Encourage use of attacks that punish crouching in order to discourage crouching.

Another thing which 3rd Strike does well is that crouching characters take extra damage. I think it would be great if knees and other heavy mid attacks did bonus damage on crouching opponents, even in VF.

Low punch
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I've got the same issues with low punch as many others. It doesn't look cool and it doesn't make much sense. In some ways Tekken have this right because the generic low punch sucks balls, which discourages people from using it. On the other hand though, you don't want to have useless moves in the movelist.

I do like the idea that knees and moves of the like get a sabaki effect on low punches. I think that alone would be good enough to discourage excessive low punching.

About punching the thighs or shin, I'm not a fan of either.

If you punch someone in the thigh, well the guy's crotch is only a few inches up and that would make a much better target. Also, the thigh being quite a curved surface, it's really hard to get a good punch in without sliding off and wasting most of your energy. You don't have this problem with Muay Thai style kicks to the thigh because you're hitting with your shin, which is a lot easier to aim than a fist.

I would also never ever try to punch someone in the shin. One of the largest and most sturdy bones in the body against the many little bones in my finger... Unless my fist is magical it's not going to be in my favour.

Hand strikes to the instep of the foot might work, but it would require such ridiculous precision that it wouldn't be worth it. If your opponent was using any kind of footwork at all you're likely to miss and hit the ground with your fist.

Now, palm strikes to the kneecap and strikes to the knee joint, I think would be effective, but these also require precision and are not really suited to many forms. I'd prefer low punch animations to be angled up towards the stomach, like in Street Fighter 1, but this will look wierd when they're used in bound combos.

Defensive options
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Most martial artists will agree that defense is harder than offense. I think this should hold true in fighting games too. Of course, it becomes just dumb luck if all your opponents attacks are equally good. That's why as mentioned earlier, the key is in the offensive options. Each character should have some strengths and weaknesses in different offensive areas. Take Lion for example. Long range lunging low attacks, but the worst low punch in the game. Akira with awesome mids but lacking in circulars.

Good defense is understanding the most likely attack that is coming in any situation, and avoiding difficult situations that give the opponent too many good options. As long as the offensive movelists for each character are designed to favour certain levels of attack(you're probably not going to keep going for lows as Akira, or not use throws with Wolf) it will be possible for someone with good game knowledge to defend themselves even with multiple levels of guarding.

This actually means that the more well-rounded a character is designed, the worse it is for gameplay sometimes.

Will a different guard system take away from our current triangles?
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It will be different I'm sure, but there will still be interesting guessing games to play. It's just that the triangles will become a lot more character based than general.

For example, your opponent's character might have an awesome long range low kick, which you would be on your guard against, but he in turn would be on guard against your character's heavy hitting high and mid elbow strikes. The general strategy for your opponent would be to play keep away using his low kick while your counter strategy would be to parry the kick and rush in to bust him up. His counter strategy to that would be to quickly step in and launch his own high attack instead of doing the kick. Your counter would be to stick a fist out for him to run into, but then he can go back to paying keep away with the low kick again. There you have your triangle.

I think the key to it is for each character to have a move or tactic which is so bloody awesome that anyone playing that character will want to go for that move. Thus, that move becomes the one to look out for, and also the most risky, because everyone who's played against that character before will know that it is coming and has their counter ready. The strategy comes with each player trying to shut down his opponent's best move while trying to put him in a position for their own.

 

Doesn't that exist already though? I mean things like Aoi's YY Stance is awesome since it gives a guaranteed follow up no matter what but due to it being such a good tool in her arsenal, people keep an eye out for it. If they see the stance they immediately go for a grab or circular. Sorry if I don't get what you meant ^^'.