hit-checking guard cancels?

Got a couple more questions about Aoi's moves that I'd like some help with.

The first is I'm trying to learn to improve my hit-checking. I'm having particular trouble with moves like her 6PP, which I tend to mash punch too much, which means inevitably whenever the first elbow gets blocked, I whiff the second P, and then die a horrible, horrible death.

The question is... I know that second punch can be guard cancelled. So, I'm unsure whether it's in my best interest to learn to not even input the second P unless I know the first hit, or still input them both, and cancel the second when I see the first P miss?

Part of that specific example is that I find it very hard to delay that second P and not get a standing jab instead the followup to the elbow. But, I guess the question is more, do you consider guard cancels more useful for attack mind games (e.g. cancel into throw), or defensive (e.g. cancel into block/evade)? For that matter... are guard cancels instant, or are there frames after a cancel where you aren't actually blocking... I notice that section of the wiki appears to be blank.

Also, can anyone tell me how to best follow up a 43P MC stagger (assuming opponent doesn't recover)? It looks like it's an unusually short stagger to me, my normal reaction on any stagger is just to go for 66K, but I've never been able to land that with this particular move... were my opponents just always recovering and I didn't realize?

And lastly, does anyone have a good suggestion for a move to use at disadvantage if I know a throw is coming? I'm just looking for something that doesn't clash, but I'm not sure what moves that's true for.

 

When I play Aoi I use her cancels for yomi instead of defense. If you use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif it is mid than high if your getting low jabbed for missing you will still get low jabbed canceling it. I say finish it only when the first shot lands.I'm not positive how much disadvantage Aoi gets canceling but I think it is 6 frames. If I do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on guard with the computer set to throw after blocking Aoi was thrown every time the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif before the cancels leaves Aoi at -6 frames. I also checked /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on guard /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif leaves Aoi at -5 frames and the throw clashed each time with the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif after the cancel.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif's stagger is really short /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (both 18 frames) should land guaranteed on MC only if the opponent was ducking. Vs standing opponents the period were that can't stagger is a little shorter so they can escape before the attack lands. The training mode computer has failed me in the past but it's better then nothing.

If you think your going to be thrown I would go for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif if your good at the input. Sabaki's are also a good choice /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for hp,mp and elbows or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for hk,mk and knees even if you don't finish it Aoi gains +2 after landing the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif .

PS: Canceling worked the same for blocking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif the computer could get in a jab before I could block. Using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif I could block after canceling.The computer was was playing Aoi so it was still a 12 frame attack.

 

Cool, thanks. I was pretty sure guard cancelling wasn't instant, but that's slow enough to make it not the best option in most situations.

Also... I'm shocked 66K is 18 frames... that makes it the same 66P+K, but for some reason the first move feels so much faster when I'm actually playing... guess it's the fact that it dodges low attacks that makes me hit more reliably.

 

Just my 2 cents, but i'm not really an Aoi player...

The hit-check you want to work on with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is whether or not it hits. If it gets blocked, just fuzzy guard or play defense. If it hits, do the followup punch.

Only after you are comfortable with the hit-checking would I concern myself with G-Cancel on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Because I think that particular G-Cancel is only a real threat if you are hit-checking well enough.

The only exception to this is when you have a guaranteed elbow. Then you can think of G-Cancel. So situations where you blocked a sweep or a low attack. Situations where you evaded an attack with lots of total frames.

But I think G-Cancel's a threat only when /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (hit) is a threat (has been happening).

However, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is a sequence you might want to look into and get a feel for your G-cancel game. But that's just my guess...

As an Aoi player though, I think you should master hit-checking her basic elbow for sure. Worry about the hit-check first,then later on worry about the G-Cancel.

-Chanchai

 

I think my solution is going to be to start reserving 6PP for situations where I know it's guaranteed (interrupting/following low punches ftw). The rest of the time I can use 43P or 33P or something, and just not have to deal with it... I've been practicing hit-checking that move for a couple days now, and it just seems to have slown me down, and caused me to lose more, and I still suck at it.

PP6PP is a great attack though, you're right... I still seem to have way too many execution issues (If you were watching my match against Robert at Preppy's, you probably saw me mash PPP a lot... most of those were supposed to be PP6PP). I'm actually getting better at that move, hopefully I'll be reasonably able to perform it on demand soon.

Outside of that, though G-cancels always worry me... they seem almost too reliant on your opponent seeing exactly what you were trying to do, and just waiting to block it(though I guess that's the whole point). That is... take PPP2K, PPP2KG > 2P+K+G, and PPP > 2P+K+G. Most opponents either forget about the low sweep, so you use the first combo, or they anticipate the low sweep to an extent that you can always land the third combo. Plus, the middle combo with the guard cancel there just makes it easier to eat a low punch right after PPP(which I think is the opponent's "best" response then anyway, on average). Same with lots of other moves... like I hear 66PG into throw is a simple G-cancel to use, but just forward dashing into throw seems to work just as well (sometimes better, since you're slightly less likely to eat a counter hit).

Don't get me wrong... back in VF4, with no online, I played the same 3 guys over and over and over for years, because we didn't have any other competition, and I had to rely heavily on G-cancels once we all learned each other's attack patterns. But without that kind of previous familiarity with my opponent, they seem too unreliable.

 

You need to train your opponents, or let them know the move's properties.

Hell, I didn't have /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif-cancel at all at the last meeting because they kept up with the abare shit. It sucks playing those who know nothing about Aoi; cancels don't work for shit, you lose a whole level of depth. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on MC is nice though.

 

Funny story... I actually met another Aoi online who had clearly mastered mixups from PPP2KG, and just kept using that the first round, and beat me. Second round... soon as I saw their first PPP, I input a low throw, and landed it on top of their G-cancel... didn't see them use PPP again the whole match, lol.

Obviously any overly repeated move usually ends like that. I guess that my complaint is more about your opponent needing to play very defensively for them to work. They have to specifically choose not to low punch in favor of blocking the low sweep for potentially larger advantage in that situation. I suppose you could condition them into it with the threat of a low reversal on the punch. It feels like you could do enough damage to end a round just conditioning them, and then it's not even safe to do the G-cancel more than once the rest of the match. I also have to wonder if at some point the opponent isn't better off risking taking the sweep than waiting and giving me a throw opportunity, unless they're good at throw escapes, I suppose.