How do I beat Kage's ass with Lion???

I had asked how to beat Kage in the Kage thread but it was suggested that I ask here instead... Sooo...

What are some good strats/moves with Lion that I can use to help give myself the edge I need to beat Kage (the evil ninja)???

 

Heh, Kage's a pain to deal with...

I can't give much advice specifically aside from encouraging you to just get stronger overall with Lion, but especially get strong with basic skills. Standing toe-to-toe against a good Kage player is scary and he has very basic as well as very deceptive/tricky options.

The general tips with Kage...

Again... basic skills. Be aware of both your tendencies and Kage's tendencies on situations involving low punch, high punch, elbow, and other pokes. For example... what is your personal tendency when your low punch is blocked? What is your tendency when you hit with your low punch? Is the Kage player punishing you for what you tend to do? How about when it's Kage doing the low punching? What are his tendencies? What are your tendencies?

This self-questioning on basic situations like low punch and elbows might help you discover problems with your basic poking if you haven't asked these before. And the same line of questioning goes with elbows, high punches, and many other moves.

I'm no anti-Kage expert but... basic skills keep me in the rounds a lot. After that, controlling when we're fighting up-close and when we're fighting at mid range also helps me a lot. But I can only attempt to control range if my basic skills are competent enough to get a poke in.

And I only really have control of range if the Kage player has trouble guessing which one I'll be going with--am I going to be rushing up-close and keep squeezing the advantage and playing basic exchanges or will I break outside of poke range and maybe even hit Kage as he whiffs his poke? Will I just break away and pause the battle's rhythm for a bit?

Another part of your basic skills is just being able to maximize damage--within your capability. What combos can you reliably do and in what situations are those combos possible? Are you extending the damage of Lion's D,f+P uppercut? If u+K MC, are you able to reliably combo it when it is possible? Which D,f+P+G throw combo can you do almost without fail? In a match, go for the combos you can do consistently. In practice, work on the combos you are not yet able to reliably use in a real match.

Lion's low punch is slower, but has a tad bit more reach than other low punches. db+PP should not be relied upon, but it can be used in places where a low punch might get eaten or a high punch might whiff. However, it's only worth small poke damage. backdash --> b,b+K is a nice whiff punisher if you can get Kage to whiff.

If you can only use one throw escape, I highly recommend b+P+G if Ring Out is possible on the current stage. Sucks that Kage has a good throw game that supports his f,b+P+G Ten Foot Toss. Sucks even more that he can easily Ring Out opponents on non-high-wall stages.

If I figure out when my opponent likes throwing me, I gamble and use b,b+K combos to get the Kage player afraid of throwing. However, it only works if you are really sure Kage is going to throw you.

If Kage gets you to block uf+K+G, be very careful about attacking right away, it's often a trap.

My personal best range against Kage is just barely outside of low punch range. It's almost out of elbow range even.

With my personal playing style (at least when I play Lion), I have to do a lot of zoning and baiting against Kage players. The hard part is when they don't take the bait.

Again, part of the reason I stress basic skills is not so much to completely go toe-to-toe against Kage up-close (I would have to say Kage has a big edge there)... but it's to be able to fight out of rough situations when Kage is rushing you. If you can fight out of those situations, you can probably break his rhythm a bit, if only for a moment. But with my play style, playing solidly at the right times gives me time to break out and then try to zone Kage.

-Chanchai

 

^Awesome post!^ Thanks!

 

<u>TFT and general anti-throw advice</u>

Kage's TFT is ridiculously strong on stages where you can get rung out. You'll have to get used to it and will have to learn all the situations when Kage will throw you--both basic and when your opponent likes to throw you. You should also figure out when you have a habit of relying on evade or standing Guard too much (many people have situations where they will almost certainly stand and block or even evade--these are strong throw opportunities for the opponent).

Jabbed-->Thrown
When your opponent jabs you (high punch or low punch) and gets a yellow flash (they interrupted you)--YOU ARE THROW BAIT. This is a common situation to get thrown in because YOU CANNOT DUCK THE THROW (assuming you were standing when you got hit).

You have two primary options here:
1) Throw Escape (this includes evade throw escape).
2) Do an unclashable attack (my favorite option).

For Lion, if you are conscious of this situation (if you can see when you get interrupted with a jab), I recommend option #2 because Lion has a good option here that's worth the gamble. b,b+K combo. This attack is unclashable and punishing options are unique.

Some characters can combo you well if you use b,b+K and they interrupt you, but not all characters are able. The combos in this situation are pretty unique because Lion is backturned and both a float and a stagger are irregular here. Kage can combo decently, but I find the gamble worth it if you're fighting a Kage that often does throw after jabbing you.

If you do throw escape, I recommend Throw=Escape-Guard and just use one throw-escape input. Buffering multiple throw escapes is only good if you are already always successfully doing single throw escapes. My advice, b+P+G (quickly let go of back and Punch, but keep holding Guard).

Single Throw Escape is important to acknowledge imo. You have no excuse for botching a single throw escape if you guessed correctly. If you just do a single throw escape, you will force yourself to guess what throw your opponent will use, which could help your focus.

Stagger --> Throw
Kage will stagger you a lot, making you fall on your ass or struggling to defend. This is a very common situation to get thrown. The odds are against you in this situation, especially if the Kage player sometimes throws you. Just be aware of the situation and force yourself to:

A) Struggle --> b+P+G (and then hold Guard while letting everything else go)
B) Struggle --> Attack (again, I recommend b,b+K if you're fast with it)

Big Disadvantage (Prime Example, Kage blocks D,f+P)
This is ultimately the same situation as getting interrupted by jabs. The difference is simple though... Being interrupted by jabs or certain attacks is likely to surprise you and it is therefore very hard to adjust to those situations (if you can't adjust to those situations, you fall under one of two categories of players: those who mash attacks when they are interrupted or those who stand and either do nothing or just block).

If your own attack leaves you at a big disadvantage when it is blocked, then you know exactly where you stand--you should know that if your opponent blocks your basic uppercut (D,f+P), he has a true 50/50 situation in which you cannot duck his throw and your attack will most likely get interrupted. Again, it's the same situation as being jabbed, except now you know well ahead of time (the moment you knew he was going to block your uppercut) that this is the situation you are in.

Many Lion players will Evade-Throw-Escape-Guard in this situation. I like to use b,b+K (against throws) here or simply defend (against attacks).

When you rely too much on Guard
The large majority of players have situations where they over rely on standing block. Good habits to have, but without backup plans... I drill local players on defending when their low punch or elbow is blocked. However, if standing Guard is their only option, Kage's TFT is essentially his only needed option.

There are many other ways to defend, including Evade-Throw-Escape (again, I recommend single-throw escape). And in this situation, low block is also an option (though be careful of getting staggered).

You need to know your own habits, and you should have at least 2-3 defensive options that you are comfortable doing for any situation.

When Kage smells fear or confusion
Try to always remain calm and focused. Basic advice, but if you ever find yourself in a position where you feel like you've run out of options or can't do anything... your confusion or possible fear can leave you running away and blocking too much. When I sense my opponent is either afraid or confused, my instincts kick in and most of the time I end up able to throw them over and over again.

Always remain calm, always remain focused, there are options so keep working at it, and remain a bit optimistic.

Hope this helps out, but like most advice, it's not a complete text on what you can and cannot do in situations. It's just one slant on the subject.


-Chanchai

 

Lion's upper as suggested by myke is among the best advice to try for starters.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not a very good tool against kage, as it's not easy to do on reaction, and being a high, high string makes it susceptible to Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

I would recommend using Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to force Kage into using faster/less damaging attacks.


I think in general, evading is not a good idea against Kage. I think the key to beating Kage is to defend well, and be patient even when you have small amount of advantage. Minimize your pokes against Kage and focus on using longer range mids (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a good move that Lion has as a counter to a variety of Kage's setups). It's best to wait until Kage makes a mistake such as getting a DM/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif blocked, or doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and whiffs the second hit.

Probably the best thing to remember against Kage is to not poke, but instead dash in and throw, or commit to bigger mid launchers.

 

I'll be brief about this as I feel like advice is one of those things either you make use of it or you don't. I think anyone that has played against Kage would probably agree with most of the things that I talked about.

Yes, the combo is less if /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif gets eaten by Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif so it has a lower degree of risk in this case, but how is that a justification into emphasizing on the use of this move?

The whole purpose of doing moves is to land it on the opponent, and the idea is to use moves that will be effective specifically on Kage. I said this move is not good to use Kage because /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is specifically designed to eliminate the speed advantage and utility of this attack.

Hit checking this move for a combo is also not trivial, add to it the distancing and command input for the move, and I just don't think this move is a good idea against Kage, especially given the threat of Kage's throw game if this high, high move whiffs.

So I don't see what's wrong with my suggestion of using this move less against Kage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you mind backing this up with something? As a Kage player I can't disagree with this enough! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Generally, it can be more rewarding to guard than evade, but in the case of the two attacks I highlighted, successfully evading is infinitely more rewarding because you get a guaranteed combo compared to 0 or +9f advantage.

The same applies to Kage's main shippuujin combo starters, which are both evaded in the same direction. But I'll expand on that in a followup post. </div></div>

Sure, if you can always guess correctly and evade the right way, that's great. That's obviously the best case scenario that every VF player wants. I can't do this all the time, however, as my opponents actively exploits evade direction. This applies as well to the purpose of this thread.

As a part time Kage user myself, I want the opponent to evade! Because that is one of the main advantage Kage has over other characters, in that his more useful moves are circular. When I play as Kage, I'm specifically looking at the evade direction of the opponent, and trying to pick up his habit to hit non delayed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, shippujin /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, or throws. That is the strength of Kage over other characters, where others have to rely on counter hit, or delayed attacks to take advantage.

When I use characters like Lau or Eileen, I do not have the luxury of having main usage moves that are circular and knocks down or combos. If I do high utility moves non delayed as I would with Kage, my opponent can evade either way and, like you said, get guaranteed dmg off of me. To take advantage of my main damage tool against people who evades, I will have to delay attack, which leaves an opening in my normal nitaku game.

As Kage, making use of evade direction, I can cover both normal nitaku, and the possibility of the opponent evading at the same time without having to delay. This is what I consider to be his strength over other characters. So again, this is the reason why I believe evading less against Kage and taking away this advantage is a good advice.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Punishing mistakes is one thing, but waiting for a mistake is highly subjective advice. IMO, no Kage player worth their salt relies on DM attacks or whiffs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif frequently. But if your opponents do play like this, then definitely make them pay for it. </div></div>

Of course, this is an extreme way to interpret what I said. It's obvious that no kage users worth playing against would rely on evade attack, or whiffing the second hit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. The reason why I gave those two examples is because they are the most obvious situations where Kage players will mess up and eat big damage. Whether or not you play a defensive game against Kage is up to you, but the reason behind my advice of being more patient against Kage is because as a Kage player, the easiest way to get damage is to take advantage of hasty responses by the opponent. It's another one of kage's strengths imo. Trying to always counter attack against Kage with quick linear moves makes you susceptible to his trick moves. If you can stay patient in his setups, you can get much bigger dmg rewards in comparison to simply hitting him normal hit, or with a circular move (which for most other characters, the reward is very small dmg wise).


So anyways, if it's usable advice, then use it. If not, just ignore.

 

You're starting to sound like Shang...

Tell me how do you land /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif after you evade Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif??? Or you are implying that maybe Kage players worth their salt will whiff the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif sometimes?

A Kage player will also not be able to get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif off against Lion's LP even after something like a blocked elbow. Do you honestly throw this move out all the time when you play Kage?

Why don't you talk about other moves that Kage will use alot, and talk about how to punish those?

Anyways, I can't argue against a Kage apologist. You just go off on a tangent once again defending him.

Linear characters suffer even more from the excuses that you gave yourself, that if they evade correctly (which is either way, unlike Kage), that they gave up guaranteed counter. Against them, you can evade all you want without thinking. Getting hit by full circular normal hit is not much risk dmg wise (which is another reason you gave yourself for why you should do something).

Against Kage you have to actively play the mind game, which can easily be taken advantage of if you mess up. So comparatively, it's much safer and rewarding to not play into Kage's game so much.

but anyways, these advice are wrong I guess no matter what, so whatever. The louder person is the one who's right.

 

Isn't this true for any character/player you face? and for the game in general? Otherwise I think a player won't improve to higher levels of play.

 

I'm referring to the evade direction. Against linear characters you don't have to think so much.

 

Lots of great advice in this thread ^_^ Despite the argument.

Outside of the argument, most of the actual advice is pretty good--at least based on my experience.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
I've always been an advocate of b,b+K--but as Srider was implying, you can't just use this move all of the time. Back to what Myke was saying about it though:
+great guaranteed attack, when it's guaranteed with some margin.
+excellent whiff punisher (built in b,b makes it excel at this)
+great reverse nitaku option
+combos against Lion when interrupting b,b+K are limited (or are "very specific")

Side Note: b,b+K has its own "slide under high attack" properties. It's not complete and shouldn't be relied upon too much, but it's a tad bit more added incentive.

To backup one of Myke's points, if you evade an attack with a lot of total frames and your opponent is standing or in the air, it's one of Lion's best options (I'd say it is his best option, but that's me). In many of these situations, you can do greater damage than the standard b,b+K combos. Followups like PKP (and sometimes more hits after that) open up.

To give credit to what Srider was saying, it is a high attack. You do not want to become predictable with this attack because punishment is waiting for you. Your opponent can actually duck the high-kick and back-throw you regardless of any attack that you do after the b,b+K (P+K followup can be interrupted by backthrow if b,b+K whiffs). Of course, this is a smaller damage option for many characters, they can do more by punishing your whiffs with appropriate attacks. It sucks having this attack whiff or even blocked if you are close to your opponent.

That said, I do think Lion players should master b,b+K. It opens up stronger damage potential for whiff punishing, reverse nitaku, and guaranteed damage. And Lion could use all the damage he can get! Especially in common situations like these.

Evading
I agree with Myke's advice on evade-direction. The point isn't to always evade, but his point was that if you are going to evade in a particular direction, it is recommended that you evade to Kage's backside.

If you are evading your opponent, you are assuming some form of success (or you might be doing it as part of your layered defense in the form of ETEG). If you are concerned that Kage will use df+P, you should evade to the backside. The tradeoff as Myke pointed out is that Kage's other options do lower damage (plus okizeme opportunity).

By all means, if you know your opponent is specifically discouraging you from evading to Kage's backside, by all means do what you must or don't evade (you shouldn't evade if you think your opponent is trying to punish sidesteps). But if you're in a poke situation or even at close-mid range and you plan to evade an attack, it's safer to go to the backside.

To evade or not to evade is a separate question. If you've decided to evade under the situation at hand, I generally recommend to the backside.

On the flipside... my opponent shouldn't evade if I keep doing sweeps. But he might evade if he thinks I'm going to poke (which is likely to happen). I often recommend that evading to Lion's backside might spare the opponent from eating a small combo from Lion's u+K. b+K (which would beat someone evading to the backside) gives Lion an advantage but it's not guaranteed to do much, just put the opponent on the defensive. Lion's sidekick is merely tiny damage. And again, if the opponent catches on to me using Lion's sweep to punish evades, then I am in danger of having my sweep blocked and punished--and the opponent shouldn't evade if he really thinks that I would do the sweep.

You never know what happens in a match until it plays out--though you can have some good guesses if you know your opponent. You can forego evades if you are afraid of getting punished, but I personally think that is overthinking. I would rather wait to see how the match unfolds and decide to evade to Kage's backside if I notice that Kage is doing linear attacks and/or df+P to good effect.

The match will tell me what the better option is. But if the question of evade direction comes up--it's better to go to Kage's backside unless he is ONLY doing things like d+K+G, etc...

But I do recommend buffering b+P+G when you evade ^_^

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
I like that Srider recommended these attacks. They are VERY GOOD attacks, and are often underutilized imo. At least in Western VF.

Know your P+K combos. It's a fast attack, it combos, it's mid, it's safe (except when evaded). It can also whiff punish decently when done right. Check out the combo lists and see when F+P --> F+K,K works after P+K.

u+P+K is the easiest whiff punisher, it closes the distance faster than normal which can throw off your opponent (but some opponents might be waiting for it). As far as I know, there are no guaranteed counterattacks aside from maybe Vanessa's df+P? But if you use this attack as a whiff punisher, you shouldn't miss.

-Chanchai

 

^Again, thank you to everyone who replied! Great advice!^

 

You don't. As what Myke has pointed out, since you can land 17 frame moves, you do Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif(16frame exe, both hits connect on recovery counter) > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Lion don't even have to evade 2k+g as he has /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to sabaki and combo after that. IMHO, I would evade to Kage's stomach all day. *I mean front >.<

 

Hi Everybody,

I can't hold back anymore in replying this thread. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Just felt better to see my post in this thread. It is a "to post for the sake of posting" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Here is my personal-ized comments in playing against Kage.
(1) Lion is a character that you need to work a 'bit' harder for your damage. I mean, when you playing Kage and have this "Opps, wrong move/evade/guess/input" situation, Kage has the 'potential' of high-damage punishing or ring-out. Comparing to Lion, if Kage has the "Opps, wrong move/evade/guess/input", Lion did a mid-range (I would pluck from the sky that 60-70 is a decent mid-range number) damage.
My 2-cents : Try to keep Lion to minimal mistake and as well as offensive. I realised that if you manage to 100% evade the proper direction AND throw-escape all the throw AND Block all the attack, the best result you get is "Draw" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


(2) Different Kage got different style. Here are some I have played
i) Killer-type : those will ring-out, TFT , DragonPunch at the right time. Meaning, the Kage know when you going to evade/block/abare/ECD/Fuzzy. Basically, he know Lion capabilities and counter-measure against Kage.
ii) Goal-oriented-type : those want to nail you with TFT/DragonPunch combo regardless of situation.


Got to go.. will post more if I'm not flamed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sg-Lion
Singapore

 

I love Lion's sabaki ^_^

Anyways, I don't understand what you mean by evading to Kage's stomach all day in this case. Because you have Lion's Sabaki as a threat against d+K+G, isn't that incentive to evade less towards Kage's front?

I have to admit, I need to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif in my game more ^_^

-Chanchai

 

goddamit, error again AFTER editing the post. Towards Kage's BACK >.<

lol

 

That cos the only decent kage you have played with in VF5 is ME! Plus you freeze up against me ALOT so Kage became S class to God class. LOL