How hard is VF compared to other FGs?

NOTE: This thread was originally part of one discussing the VF Scene outside of Japan. The conversation turned into something worthy of its own thread - Plague

Interviews? LOL If you only knew...

Folks a lot of you cats R barking up the wrong tree.
Its not availability, its not Sega marketing, its not lack of advertising, its not that Tekken and SC etc were somehow luckier than VF.

1) VF fails the buttonmashability test

2) the majority of the fighting community simply don't find it
as enticing (for several reasons) as the other fighting
games.

3) VF is too hard to get intermediate to advanced skills in

4) VF has fewer features by far that most fighting games
no team play, no story mode, no survival modes, etc.

5) Since less ppl play it less ppl want to play it. i.e.
It has a small community, I rather go where the action
is.

Sure Sega could do better advertising and marketing, we could'of had better placement and availability. But none of that would change VF.

VF is both the good news and the bad news. The good news is that VF is potentially the deepest and most balanced fighter on the market. The bad news is that VF is potentially the deepest and most balanced fighter on the market. VF is its own worst enemy.

I've come to these conclusions about VF after years of introducing VF for the first time along with Tekken or DOA or SC for the first time to noobs, and watching time and time again the noobs pushing the eject button on VF in favor of one of the other fighting games. (no advertising or marketing or availability could change that)

FACE IT PPL! We're trying to sell Bugatti's to ppl who prefer
the Ford Focus

 

On the streams I've seen people say that the difficulty of VF is overstated, but from what I've read so far, its not overstated at all.

Real talk: why is it more difficult than other fighters at the higher level?

 

It's not nearly as difficult to get started in as the rumours would have you think. It's only three buttons, after all. It's just got such a deep and rewarding learning system that it's hard to look back on your early days of playing without thinking of them as having been so long ago (although some people got their start much earlier, but I mean to speak more generally)... I think your perspective becomes more skewed as time goes on, because once you cross that line into being a competent player, you see how gigantic the gap is, and it messes with your outlook on the whole thing. That's my two cents on it, anyway.

 

I dont want to sound like a dick by any means, but I get the impression that a lot of traditional 2D FG players, even guys who play a lot, are often ignorant of how important some common FG concepts like levels of disadvantage and hit checking (hit confirming), because a lot of the 2D fighters give you easier ways to deal with these components of the games. Especially newer titles like SFIV.
For instance, a basic hit confirm in SFIV for Ryu is c.LK, c.LP, c.LP. So you have three attacks worth of time to notice whether you're opponent is blocking/being hit/crouching etc, so you have plenty time to asses the best way to end that combo/string dependant on what they have done, like a Fireball as a safe string ender if they're blocking or a DP/Tatsu if you've hit. In VF you get one elbow or one 2P, which you then have to notice if it was blocked/hit/counter hit and instantly begin buffering/performing the appropriate following action depending on the level of advantage/disadvantage you've left yourself at. This is why VF is probably, IMO at least, the fastest FG there is, especially in terms of how many decisions you have to make and how fast you have to make them.
In terms of levels of advantage, in 2D games it's often the case that most characters will have a move or maybe a couple that has invincibility, like a DP, so whether you're at -3f or -8f, if your opponent is trying something clever like a frame trap you have at least one option, your DP, that will get you out of that situation, and that same tactic can be applied to any time you are at disadvantage and there is a gap that can be exploited. In VF however, much more emphasis is on knowing exactly what disadvantage you are at so you can pick the correct thing to do, like fuzzying,TEs,ETEG etc, and that's just level one stuff, you then have to contend with your opponent being able to guess that because they know you know you're at -5f, that you'll be inclined to fuzzy, that they can beat that with a delayed throw for instance. Which is maybe why there is a perception that at high levels VF is a much harder game to play, where even choosing the correct option in any given situation can work against you, especially if they are also maximising the opportunities that they carve for themselves. It's why top level Jap play is such a joy to watch.
I think the hardest thing for me to get used to in VF initially was not just being able to block and take stock of a situation and regain my composure, you literally have to actively defend yourself if you don't want to get 0f thrown to death, which again adds to the overall pace of the game. Breaking throws in advance, attacking from disadvantage at smart times and just generally not being overwhelmed is really tough when you first pick up the game, and coming across from titles like SFIV, or even just viewing the game from a Capcom orientated perspective can make VF seem like there is an awful lot to know before you even pick up your stick, and in comparison I suppose there is when you think about it, it's entirely possible to play IV to an ok level with minimum knowledge of what the fuck is actually happening as long as you can do a few combo's and mash DP whenever you're under pressure.
VF is very simple tho and you'll never find yourself in a hopeless situation because there is always something you can do. Again, a good SFIV example is being corner trapped by M. Bison, who can lock you down with excellent pokes from a safe distance, apply safe pressure with scissor kicks and when you're finally conditioned to just sit there and take it, open you up with throws and then CH set ups if he can make you tech. The bitch of that situation is it's very low risk for Bison to keep you in the corner, whereas it's almost always a high risk to try and get out, you might have to jump or throw out a reversal or poke and risk being CH, baited, AA'd etc. As far as I can tell, there are no such horribly skewed situations in VF, well there are damned if you do, damned if you dont moments that you can be forced into, but not to that kind of degree (IMO).
Im neither a good nor particularly experienced VF player, so 99% of the people on this site can tell you whether Im on the right track or Im talking shit, but those were defo the things it took me time to adapt to and I can only believe that they are all part of the games lofty reputation for being hard to learn. Which actually isnt really true, as VF is much easier to pick up and start getting into than the average SRK head would have you think. it's really just the flow and general amassing of knowledge that can seem like hard work at first, but truthfully it's a joy when it all starts coming together. I honestly cant think of another FG where I have almost as much fun fighting the CPU as I do real people.

TL;DR = Capcom suck.

Apologies for going off on one and making a huge post that has fuck all to do with the title of the thread.

 

IMO, the majority (I would say close to 98%) of people claim the VF is very hard to learn I believe fell into three categories:

1. Sega fanboys who never played any fighting game seriously, but wanted to boast about VF because it's Sega. They just repeated what they were told without knowing what the hell they were talking about. People who fall into this category declined simply as the number of Sega fanboys declined, as the said company went down the toilet.

2. VF players who don't play any other fighting game seriously, so never really had right frame of reference anyway. Again they wanted to boast how complex/difficult the VF is, thinking as if it somehow makes them more mature and more superior to mere mortals who play SF and Tekken.

3. SF or other game players who never played VF seriously but needed some excuse on why they don't.

Okay so just because something is 98% BS doesn't mean there isn't 2% truth to it. I think Rich discussed it very well. Let me add to it a little more.


For SF players, it may not be a complete lie, given that SF and 3D fighting games in general are just so different. But it's like trying to teach basketball to a math geek or vice versa. Just because it maybe hard to teach VF to someone who's a dedicated SF player doesn't mean VF is inherently difficult.

For a starter, most VF moves and combos are laughably easy to do for people who went to the rigourous training of performing real hard combos in 2D fighters or even Tekken. When VF5 came out for PS3 some people were BSing how online doesn't work for VF because it requires precise input. Well, anyone with any knowledge in SF and Tekken knew that they require far more precise input than VF does! It was appaling how much BS were thrown in this regard.

Of course, there are two things that made VF combos somewhat artificially harder: stance and character weight dependence. But neither are something godawfully difficult to learn.

(I can think of just one regular combo that actually requires strict timing in VF, and that's Lau's b,f+p, PPPK combo against non-heavy weights. But guess what, no one I know outside Japan and Korea could do this consistently anyway so it didn't really matter.)


Also as Rich said, it's relatively easier for a defender to reverse momentum in this game compared to others. In Tekken and SF if someone just knows how to corner you/pressure you/okizeme you you are fucked, or you need to work real hard to get out of the situation. In VF it's different. That makes the game easier in one way but also harder in one way--as in SF and Tekken once you gain momentum you can start relaxing just a little, Whereas in VF momentum can change at any moment.

A lot of times people claim VF is difficult not because the game is difficult but different, and don't bother to learn this difference. Sure it has many moves to learn but Tekken has far more, and a lot of situations in Tekken can be much more difficult (or require very specific knowledge) to deal with than whatever VF can throw at you.




PS:
Let me change the subject to reiterate my point I made in the other post: If Evo had no chance of converting you to play SF or Tekken, then you can't expect Evo to convert anyone into playing VF either.

You can't complain about "FGC" and wonder why Shoryuken.com doesn't help you spread VF, if one of the favorite activities in VFDC remains dissing Capcom and its fans. People of minor fighting games have this curious tendency to badmouth the mainstream games while paying token respects to each other. But that's the keyword--token. Don't delude yourself for a moment that any KOF or DOA player would actually bother converting to VF or help the VF community in any serious way.

 

SRK is for Capcom games. This site is for VF. Easy enough, eh?

SRK's events have often gotten separate communities under one roof, hosting various games, and pulling it off increasingly well lately. However, I find the assumption that there's a singluar FGC's expectations to engage, and not individuals with varying preferences and interests a little problematic.

 

I asked because I got mixed message about VF's difficulty. I heard it was overstated by players on VF5FS streams and even James Chen told me in a tweet that it was more difficult (and thus probably won't be as well liked at more mainstream fighters).

Very interesting points everyone.

 

It's not more "difficult" then other fighters, VF is easier to learn then most fighting games, due to the strict and logical system. You can explain how VF works in absolute terms in like one session with a player. The same thing can take months in another game. In FS they've also eliminated one of the more technically challenging aspects of the games and made it considerably easier.

Never confuse depth with difficulty.

What's difficult is of course becoming a good player. But that is difficult in all fighting games.

 

That's because Chen comes from the same background as the rest of the old timers here on VFDC, where VF was called the hardest game out there to play. That fact has really changed since the inception of the fighting game community. Honestly, back in VF2 days, VF was friggin hard to get a grasp around. I still remember my friends and I all trying to play the game as kids, and having tons of fun with jacky, kage, and lau. However none of us had a clue as to how to use Akira, but just assumed he was the strongest character because he was so hard to get to do anything. We didn't know jack about 66P or any of that stuff as out background was in Street Fighter's quater circle motions.

This is where a lot of the idea of VF is hard comes from. A bunch of kids not knowing the moves, grew up and still thought the game was hard because they couldn't figure out how to do anything "cool". I think newer players who don't have the background in fighting games from childhood up are going to have a better chance at accepting VF in the future instead of old-timers like myself.

[disclaimer I'm not really that old]

 

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I tend to agree. If I play a SF game, I can most likely guess out most of the moves. However, in VF, I've found that I've had to look up the moves.

 

I totally forgot that Capcom made Tekken and Mortal Kombat. How did I forget that?

 

No need to be pedantic. I'm sorry, I'll add a 'primarily' if it makes you feel any better.

 

it won't make me feel either way. it will make me think you've missed the point of what SRK's front page has become.

 

Then say that. I said nothing that'd warrant a sarcastic response on your part.

SRK's front page has made an effort to be a catch-all site recently - good on them. It's a useful aggregate of fighting game news. It's on my google reader. yay.

My point was that newer players assume SRK is the center of an 'FGC' -- a term that didn't become popularized until after SF4 came out in 2009. SRK has always been Capcom-centric, though. The attitude of the community has reflected that strongly for years online and off.

 

welllllll ... really, your opening reply to Hyun was no less overly simplistic or sarcastic than mine to you.

suffice to say I don't disagree with your take on the matter despite that.

 

Well, that's good, because I don't make allowances for old men !

 

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was reiterating my earlier point that the sites are distinct. I agreed with part of what Hyun said on the first page and expanded on it. Sorry if it came off that way.

 

Yeah this is where I think the feelings of "VF IS SO HAAARRDDD" comes from. It's just a very unique game, in terms of the inputs required. When I play VF I have to actually play VF, not some other game. Eileen has those quater circle motions, which I really like and is a major reason I picked her up to start with. She also has that feeling of super canceling her moves with her wari actions so she felt nice.