How is the AI?

Discussion in 'Console' started by K1LLeR_Sp0cK, Mar 31, 2002.

  1. K1LLeR_Sp0cK

    K1LLeR_Sp0cK Member

    Ive read that u can make ur own computer but i'd like to know how the AI normally is without messing with it.
    Are they hard/easy or unrealistic.....?

  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    if you own the game, just play and find out.
    If you don't... well, what's it matter anyway, right?
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    Thread moved to Console.
  4. Typhoon

    Typhoon Well-Known Member

    If you're talking about creating an AI and having it fight for you...

    First off, you have to know that it doesnt do anything you dont initially teach it. Which means you have to either teach themt he movelist or learn the character yourself and relay that info to the AI by sparring with them.
    The AI will also learn float combos sometimes if you teach them. The problem is that AI dont seem to understand key concepts such as charge moves (holding a move for more power) and certain other technicalities (performing a move out of guard). Some moves the AI can NOT learn due to its limitations. You can show it the move but unless it repeats the move properly it seems they dont learn to use it well at all. Also while sparring it is hard to get them to repeat certain moves correctly because the move relys on a back turned position or hitting you from the side.

    It learns game mechanics like guarding, tech rolling and throw escaping on its own and gets better as it advances in rank through Kumite.
    It will also lock up and get confused, doing nothing early on... which leads to it getting pummeled and you getting frustrated. This clears up as you coach it though.

    The basics of coaching are watching it take what you taught it and having it do moves during a fight. You either applaud their actions or tell them not to do that as often. The problem is you can never say dont do that EVER again. So if you teach an AI a jumping move by accident (youll learn this will seal most AI fate if you teach them one) the best you can do is tell it NO every time it does it.
    You also cannot coach all the time. You must wait for the AI to perform a move or string and THEN ask you if it was OK. Sometimes they do great things but dont ask (meaning you cant improve that move by saying yes) or do completely moronic things over and over without asking your approval.

    Early on in AI life saying yes to a good move can force it to repeat the move several times in succession until you tell it NO to the same move you just said yes to. This is due to a limited understanding of their repetoire and does correct itself in time.

    In general the AI is fun as all hell but nothing its cracked up to be in reviews. It is not autonomous... if you do not teach it moves and combos well it will not perform well. It relys on you as the root. It is also severly hampered by the yes/no coaching interface. It only asks approval for moves... not conditions. So if it fails to make exact recovery after a throw you cannot teach it to improve in that area. You also cannot directly coach it to focus on low attacks for a certain fight or NOT attack Vanessa with linear punches when shes in defensive stance (if you dont know this is bad and usually leads to more hair pulling). And most importantly you cannot tell it how to deal with grounded opponents or rising attackers. Anything situational is pure luck on the AIs part. It learns moves and nothing else... which is why after grounding an opponent it often goes ballistic with a combo you taught it... punching and kicking the air like mad while the opponent sits on the ground laughing.

    It is not human. It cannot beat an intermediate human opponent on a good day (though they can surprise you!). In the confines of AI versus AI though it is fun to watch your baby grow in power, learn at the same rate you learn (she shoulda done THIS after that move... Ill teach her that next sparring session), and eventually rank up in Kumite.

    If you dont plan on playing the game yourself most of the time, dont pick up VF4 simply for the AI. It is a wonderful compliment to the game as both a toy and a tool for people who have room to grow (or newcomers). It is not perfect. But it is amusing in a Pokemon-ish way.

    As a side note... the actual CPU AI is harsh if you play fair. It knows all the tricks and uses them against you effectively compared to their skill level. But like any AI it was programmed with a few faults... the biggest in VF4 is guard stagger, which you can use to cheeze CPU AI to death for a long long time (early on you learn to break guard stagger reliably and quickly... CPU seems to have a % chance which you can abuse for 3/4 of Kumite mode for guaranteed hits). Aside from that.. top notch... and whoever programmed Jacky AI can kiss my butt!!! Great job... too great... or maybe I just suck vs Jerky. Heh.
  5. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Actually...not many people know this..but
    U can make ur AI character 'forget moves'.

    Dun want him to jump? Wanna rid his bad habits?
    No problem at all.

    Save a replay...then go to replay mode n slowly guide ur AI step by step...telling him what is good..bad...what to remember n what to forget.
  6. Moby

    Moby Well-Known Member

    Typhoon, thanks for that great synopsis on the capabilities and weaknesses of the AI character training in VF4!! One of the best overall analysis of it I've seen yet.
  7. Typhoon

    Typhoon Well-Known Member

    The problem with what you suggest SummErs is that you are still only slapping his hand not telling him to forget it altogether. The AI will, on occassion, try things not in its mainstay list of movements and WILL jump. I had my AI Vane doing back jumpkicks all the time and she still does it on occassion... which almost always leads to her ringing herself out or being countered for a nasty float.
    More specifically, if you look under status for AI and keep moving the menu to the right or left you will see a list of all that characters movements and how 'good' they are at doing it. What seems to happen is that when you tell the AI something is good it bumps that move upwards a few points and does the opposite when you say no. After numerous sessions and kumite matches, the mainstay moves for your AI will be up to about 35+. These are the moves they will bust out most often. Moves in and around 10 they are likely to pull out only on a very random basis.
    When sparring, each time you show it a move, the mastery of that move will go up. So if you want the AI to do something more often, show them the move several times.
    Problems arise tho when you try to teach it new float combos and such. The moves that make up the combo ALL go up and the AI will use them at any time. This can be bad for matches vs Aoi or anyone who can read predictable patterns. It also tends to mess up great AIs... your AI could be doing wonderfully and when you decide to teach it some new funk, you'll find yourself having to seriously condition your AI back into its regular modus operandi while still incorporating the new techniques.
    Its a ruff job.
    And as far as I have tested you cannot disapprove of a move until it reaches 0 (untaught). Minimum is 1... which means it will occassionally do it.

    While replay coaching is nice for play by plays (allows you to coach them on moves that were countered in the fight but happened too fast for you to respond to), the serious drawback here is you cannot see the effect your coaching is having on its overall technique.
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    I'm not suggesting it is the best option
    only one of the things anyone 'SHOULD' do.
    It's even mentioned in the white book.

    Of coz, normal training must be conducted to.

    But's fun to pit two AI together...
    then start screaming at their foolishness n laughing at their 'combo skills'.
  9. Typhoon

    Typhoon Well-Known Member

    I don't laugh at my Vane AI nor my buds Lei AI. They are both 7th Dan now and can ocassionally whoop my butt (not saying much I know but hey... they are crazy!).
    AI is annoying and frustrating at first, but if you learn to play well, so do they. We pit Vane and Lei against each other, crack open a few suds, nuke a plate of nachos and watch the mayhem ensue. No coaching... the fights are really spectacular sometimes.

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