How to beat backwalk / backdash evade

Ok then . . . starting with the most notorious example:

Vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combined with backwalk or backdash evade.

How do you beat this with your character?

-- edit so people dont have to wade through BS --

Because of throw speed / collision detection changes in VF5, everyone can use backwalk or backdash ~ evade (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif) to get away from both throws and linear attacks in disadvantaged situations, if some moves are guarded at range. Because the backwards movement gets out of throw range, the evade doesnt need to have throw escapes in it. Because the backwards movement adds delay, the evade can beat many delay attacks as well.

There are certain moves that give just enough pushback on guard that this works at very close range, even though it visually might not look like it.

Setup moves that give proper pushback:

akira
aoi
brad
eileen
elblaze
goh
jacky
jeffry: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
kage
lau
leifei
lion
pai
sarah
shun
vanessa: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
wolf


How to beat this kind of thing:

Universally, dashing in and throwing works, but exposes you to getting hit by a brief backwalk followed by an attack.

Circular / half circular moves can stop backdash evade, but are slow enough to often whiff against simple backwalking.

akira
aoi
brad
eileen
elblaze
goh
jacky
jeffry: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif cancel to foil evade, then e.g. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif strings ?
kage
lau
leifei
lion
pai
sarah
shun
vanessa
wolf: Giant-swing type grab animations have extra range, will more easily reach backdash evade and backwalk.

 

If I know someone is going to dash back and evade; as someone on my friend list does at the start of 80% of rounds, I dash at them and grab.

Wolf's grabs are serious business.

 

simple...

you WALK towards the vane player.

as wolf, i try to sniff out 3k and use reversal. 66k, i just block it, dash in, and throw at first. if the opponent ETEGs, then next time i just do half/full circular attacks such as screw hook, ogre slash hit throw, and K+G. if they start ducking, then i'll consider low throw.

it's just a matter of who adapts first...

also, there are bigger things to worry about vane than 3k and 66k.

 

Nice, KoD, way to focus on talking about "how to deal" instead of "what's wrong with VF" or "that style of play sucks, i'm just saying" bullshit.

Anyway I'll ask the same question I asked in the "let's focus on talking about the problem" thread (originally the "Amusement BeeBee" thread):

1. Could a succesful evade followed by either a well-timed OM or a crouch dash cancel to move in on Vanessa work? I thought that one of the reasons OM was put in the game was to deal with this style of play.

2. With walls and ring outs, can you really run around the ring and play keep-away during the entire match against a skilled player?

And please, no theory fighter b.s.
I'm asking "Would this work" as in "Have you applied it in a match and had it work for you?" when dealing with turtles.

 

Jeff doesn't have a whole lot he can do against that, other then try to walk forwards and bullrush it. Maybe threat P+K, 43P+K, 66K, 64P,K- but those are all evadeable/slow...

 

Jeffs sidekick has range of two lightyears. Jeff can also turtle/poke with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

ps. To beat evade from distance you need timing or circulars.

 

Old since VF4 times and still works: A simple jab beats backdash, backdash evade and backwalk unless opponent starts out very far away.

 

If you ask me, this is slightly less true now in the world of wacky hitboxes, but overall: If opponent runs away, you have two options. Either you wait him come back or you go to him..

To Tonyfamilia:
1.) yes
2.) if the runner is also skilled, otherwise normal situations apply. (better player wins)

 

Nice! Thanks! We don't have any "good" turtles down here for me to test (and no online yet).

So contrary to what I've read on these forums, OM is useful and it is a dynamic addition.

 

I bully that bitch by constantly /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif to show that ho I'm not afraid. And when she is about to twitch... BOOM [/size]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. If she tries to run away even more I dance around just outside of her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif range, anticipate when she will use it and after she does, I use a quick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif followed by a quick OM to make her think I will attack out of OM and then grab that ho with my strongest throw. PWNED! FUCK Vanessa! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

For those that want to try out these tactics I recommend playing Low Sweep he is an American Vanessia player that strives on the style of play.. Heres what I found out Generally I found out that players that abuses these tactics suffer up close and they resort to using manly vanessia sabaki's when you get up close.

Jacky - 66k and 4 K+G should be your 2 most used moves in this fight. 66k is risky up close but constant use of the move is necessary to scare Vanessa from using 2k,3k and 66k. When up close go for 46K since it will beat all of Van sabaki's up close

Jeffery - I discovered that jeff's 3K+G (go for 3k+g manly over 3K) has even better range then Vanesia 3k and fact it will beat it at far range all the time..this match up isn't too difficulty for Jeffery in my
opinion

I need help on how to deal with this tactic with El blaze Lau and kage

 

I personally think with Lau I want to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is good because even when blocked Lau is only at tiny disadvantage.

Also, when I get knockdowns, dash at the player so they cannot backroll away.

 

How to beat Vanessa Machi

Since this is targeted against Vanessa (DS), I feel I need to jump in [though the most retarded comments are in the previous Vid thread]:

What the fuck are you guys bitching about?

Lets look at it this way:
A. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -9 on block
B. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -5 on block
C. Turtling/machi and frame counting are a great strategy... against people who obviously can't apply their "VF-knowledge" in an actual situation or noobs.
D. Vanessa has a Sabaki for a lot of shit.
E. Distance can be made up (after Vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif) for with a dash and attack.
F. Vanessa's spacing is fucking great (I've been saying this for months), but her damage outside of close range is far from "impressive enough" to make her "overpowered."

What do you do?

You get hit by MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at max range and you get pushed away: attacking isn't a good idea: she's at +5, and anything quick you could do will whiff. Solution? Block, evade, back dash. Yes, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will beat evade, but OMG, GUESS WHAT? VF is a GUESSING GAME. If I remember correctly: <u>there is nothing in this game that beats everything</u>.

You get hit by NH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at max range, Vanessa is now closer to you and is even: NO ADVANTAGE. I seriously don't even need to state your options here.

You block /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at max range, Vanessa is now at -5 and is closer to you, she has to make a guess now: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif, fuzzy, ETEG, abare (with sabaki too), and just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. The last four you should know how to beat by now; as for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif it's simple. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif into a guessing game. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, elbows, heavy attacks, something with range, throws, whatever. Yeah, she can always sabaki whatever you throw at her, but is that the problem or is it you predictability?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will knock back on block (but the animation is deceiving, it isn't that much). At closer ranges even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif, and further ranges, apply the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif guess work: it's easier now since you're at +9.

Why is it that we don't see this at top level Japanese tournaments? BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING EASY TO BEAT. VF is a GUESSING GAME, APPLY ONE ONCE IN A WHILE.

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<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Due to the amount of bitching about Vanessa, the rest of this post will be an analysis of DS</span>
-----

Now to my admission; yes (DS) Vanessa's spacing game is strong, probably the best in the game, but look at it this way: what else does she have?

A.
Sabaki at every level, a sweet inashi, and powerful reversals; but think about it...

How often do you see /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif actually applied (her most damaging sabaki attacks)? That shit requires a lot of yomi, considering they're both extremely slow and have very specific sabaki ranges: Vanessa is really risking her ass if she tries these, unless you can really read your opponent, but then that's the opponent's fault for being so damn predictable.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif can be seen as an awesome attack, but it has a major weakness: they're both high and slow. Of course from what I've seen from Western VF and your punishing abilities, this move is just "unbeatable." It's broke (except for Renzo or any other player with Vanessa exposure...).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif beat two hit levels and blocks a third (special mid); that an awesome, seemingly broken property. It's also pretty slow, elbows eat it for breakfast, and if done at disadvantage, any character's huge mid-hitting launcher will beat it, and remember: Vanessa is a light-weight. But never mind, it's broken.

I shudder to see the day when people start bitching about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Her reversals do a lot of damage compared to other characters, yeah, but she has a limited range of what she can reverse anyway. On top of that, her most damaging one (vs. HP and MP) is escapable at two different occasions.

Her inashi is pretty strong since you can make an error and still grab someone's fist and ring them out if the range permit... remember, this like all of her other defensive techniques, requires yomi. If you get inashi'd, guess what? Your opponent probably read you, and if it was by accident inputting the follow ups is difficult due to the small window.

B.
Her damage is pretty good and easy to perform (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gifMC/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Granted, there are several exceptions to when stances are needed (my formerly finished Wiki combo section was better evidence).

But let's look at the attacks:

1. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a knee class attack, that leads to a 70 damage (normal hit) combo on everyone. It's also a half-circular and -5 on block. It's also a HIGH. If you can't see the weakness of this move: you're stupid.

2. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is nowhere near as evasive as it used to be; I get attacked out of it more than it connects nowadays. According to the black book (or at least what I remember), it is evasive during the first 4 frames, meaning: you really need to know whether or not if your opponent is going to attack. If they block it, most characters get a free /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: so it's relatively safer compare to other character's attacks... it's also really slow.

3. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (to her stomach) is really evasive, but like with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, you need to know if your opponent is going to attack, other wise the opponent can just block the telegraphing attack. It's almost 40 frames... OMG, so broken.

4. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, it's -9 now; if you eat this attack all the time: stop with the abare shit for a while.

The other attacks speak for themselves if you explore them in dojo, not like you'll do it, because from what I've been reading here: you guys (not all) aren't too keen on research and searching for yourselves.

C.
Her spacing game: refer to the top of this post.

D.
Her throw game is decent and has strange directions to break... I guess you'll need to stop mashing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif and actually try to throw escape now. OH NOES, YOU HAVE TO ADAPT!!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

-----
If you examine these things and what other characters have, you'll notice that DS is lacking in many key areas:

A. She doesn't have a mid-knee class attack. If you can't see the issue here you're retarded.
B. Her punishment is shit until +17 on a standing opponent and +20 on a crouching opponent (which is really hard to do as well since you can't really buffer /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif).
C. She has no elbow class attacks. Yeah, ws /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is 13 frames and can be done with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif*/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, but it is much harder to make it into a 14 frame attack than a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif that the millions of whiny Akira players keep crying about. On top of that; yeah it staggers on MC... staggers can be escaped. Her other substitute is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, it's really good for what it is, but an elbow would be a luxury.
D. None of her lows, other than BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, knock down. Sure there's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, but that's only on MC, you can duck the follow ups even on normal hit, but it's not like any of you know the character (even though there is a commandlist on the site, my many Vanessa contributions, and the game's own dojo mode): therefore=broke.

etc.

Now, I'm not bitching that she needs these things, in fact I wouldn't want them. I don't want to play an overpowered character that so many of you whiny fucks want (give X a mid full circular, give X a better throw game, blah blah).

Seriously, don't bitch about my character.

 

Re: How to beat Vanessa Machi

Depending on how frequently they block, I think 66K+G for Jacky would be a good option too.

Pick Brad and do mid kick counters /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif That would only last for so long though lol.

EDIT: @ Sebo, she's your character again? And we can't bitch about yours but you can bitch about ours ; ;? (Though I don't really see any bitching in this thread.) And I'm sure some know the character just fine. I don't play her but feel comfortable fighting her.

For the record, no character really upsets me. Shun will frustrate me, along with Blaze, but that's for other reasons lol. (And I still happen to like those characters :\ just not when I'm fighting them haha.)

 

what I referring too

Vanessa's sidekick I think has more range then Jeff's though

3K+G, should use that more- I keep thinking it's too slow though.

 

Re: How to beat Vanessa Machi

You're right! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is BROKEN!

 

Re: How to beat Vanessa Machi

"Seriously, don't bitch about my character."

Seriously, someone has issues, for Christ sakes even in a thread about how to beat a character theirs hostility from the players who uses them. It's a video game lets all try to remember that here

 

Re: How to beat Vanessa Machi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I don't want to play an overpowered character ...</div></div>

Why not? I sincerely hope you play the character you play because you like the character, not because people think she's not overpowered. Do you think it takes away from your wins if people think you're using an OP character? Two words: who cares. Focus on yourself more than what others think of you.

 

Re: How to beat backwalk / backdash evade

I'll post up more detailed responses to the actual topic once I get some time to make video, but for now, I just want to say this:

This thread is intended to be about how to beat BACKWALKING and BACKDASH EVADE, not about vanessa specifically. Vanessa happens to have the most well-known setup for it, that's all. We can move on to talking about other chars setups if anyones got some.

In other words, keep it on topic or i'm going to move your post to a vanessa sucks/rules thread, then assign you homework to count how many times /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif got used in SBO '07 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif