How to beat backwalk / backdash evade

OK. Since we are being professional about this, here are some pointers about beating machi with Vanessa. From OS. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

When you start the round in OS some players like to backdash in the begining of the round, let you whiff and then punish you. Sarah, Jeffry and Akira come to mind. I have a friend who plays Lau that way too. OS vane can still nail them though: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has great range. If they try to backdash the move will nail them and they'll probably freeze up so throw them. If they are more cunning and try to crouchbackdash the move will stagger them so hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif for a small float. If the opponent is more skilled and does a box-step backdash, well, followup with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and hope to nail them. Experienced players tend to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif btw.

A machi Shun is also tough to face from OS. Thankfully /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif comes to the rescue again. It has enough range to connect after he does /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, it even connects after blocking his butt-punch sequence. Same goes for SS canceling Jackys too (hi Jorjo!).

If your opponent is hovering near the edge of the ring, has more life and has readied some kind of stance ready to punish you (Kage jumonji, Lei Fei dancing, Shun laying down etc.) A good option is to close the distance is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. It's realy slow but the rage is huge, it does an absurd 30 damage and the active frames are deceptive so it can crush some retaliations. It's only -6 on block too so you're safe.

Finally the third anti-backwalk tool at OS vane's disposal is the simple /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. For three reasons:

-- Firstly, vane's punch from OS has built-in the "advances forward" option found in most other characers' punches by pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif and the punch button. That means that backwalking/backdashing after moves with pushback doesn't work that well. It can thus connect after Wolf's Screw Hook, Jacky's BT/SS mid punch, Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, even *gasp* DS Vanessa's shadow slicer.

-- Secondly, the string has a *very* delayable followup. That means that against a turle who tries to keep away you can do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (pause) and then watch their reaction. If they twitch and they are within range hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif for the +8 CH. If they are not within range, block. Maybe they'll even whiff so you can give them a taste of their own medicine. If they don't twitch, you can either repeat or --

-- Thirdly, and most importantly, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is cancelable by into a lancer by hitting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif . That means that, if your reaction time/yomi is good and you can see they are just going to block/keep backwalking/backdashing you can nail them with a nasty catch throw. Catch throws can have a bigger range than regular throws, this isn't something that only OS vane can exploit. In the controversial video (that sprung this thread) Shou nails that infamous backwalking Vanessa with the rolling face crush catch throw *5 times* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

BTW if you are desperate, and you are not above "n00b tactics", instead of doing all that effort to penetrate a turtle's defence (which is mind-tiring and soul-consuming) you can shift the weight of having to guess on to your opponent: the above-mentioned /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif has a startup animation that's confusingly similar to the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif lancer. The tackle will lose to fast attacks but the catch-throw will eat their first frames. They can duck the catch throw but the tackle floats on simple hit, with a nastly wall splat/instant ring out over low walls. Sure it's a 50-50 bt but it's better than letting the time run out. It works even better if you have conditioned them by using the lighting tackle a couple of times before /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

 

I come across a few turtlers and what I have a really hard time with them with my eileen. I think it's because I use flowcharts a lot with her and I try to flesh out a CH for big dmg.

I normally end up waiting the person out at around max range for my 6K then him them with it when they finally attack. I basically turtle back which isn't an answer I like but since nobody else is talkn' about EI I'll toss something out there.

Only big problem with the 6K I'm finding is that it leaves me at czy negative and since they're turlers they block it pretty often. I'm kinda at a loss other than run up in their face and throw them.

 

I was refering to this thread.

And I don't bitch about other character, I'll say Lau is FUCKING BORING TO PLAY AND WATCH, but he isn't over powered. I'll say a lot about Akira's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, but partly to remind Akira players that they have one of the best launchers at their disposal. And as for Sarah: seriously, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif:+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is fucked up.

Not a fan of hyperbole, eh?
<span style='font-size: 8pt'>
(I don't even like this game that much anymore... it's not even worth traveling for)</span>

Fixed.

Why not? I sincerely hope you play the character you play because you like the character, not because people think she's not overpowered. Do you think it takes away from your wins if people think you're using an OP character? Two words: who cares. Focus on yourself more than what others think of you. </div></div>

A combo of both, add in "the most familiar with" as well (maybe after Jeffry).

I just hate bandwagons. Why else is Soulja Boy so popular?

 

What? Do I need to state everything explici... oh shit. I guess I do since the topics seem to recycle themselves constantly here.

Makes me wonder why we even have a wiki... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

Ok that's fair enough.

Also, I think the claim that the game isn't worth traveling for is extremely subjective. For me, it's more worth traveling for than any other game being played right now. But in saying that, I fully realize that may not be true for others.

 

DS Vane != OS Vane

DS punch = 12 frames, <s>can hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif to advance forward</s> apparently not!

OS punch = 11 frames, built-in advance forward (also the punch is slightly higher, does not rebounce, akira's elbow tech-crouches it, etc. etc.)

...i thought this thread wasn't supposed to be Vanessa-specific? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Of course. Though I failed to mention that no game is really worth traveling for anymore imo (unless there is a Worms World Party Lan gathering).

Well, she's the primary target (judging from the several posts/threads dedicated to her spacing) for people who hate turtles.

 

This thread made me happy. Thank you KoD (I mean that - atleast until you start unloading your bomb / ranting / planned sneakattack which was the REAL purpose behind this thread).

I believe a big part of the problem against in particular backwalk and Van midkick is what's stated in the blackbook;

"the total frames for the move are 40, meaning that even if it evaded it is hard to punish"

So evading seems to be worse against it. KoD - you can't somehow do a comparision in your framecountingways of sidekick / a sidekick in general so one knows in comparision how much faster the recovery is?

Also; one should bare in mind that Vanessa players are looking for hitting a sidekick are looking to hit it at absolute max range as it changes the situation a bit (same thing was with Wolfs sidekick in Evo I think where it became non TC). Familarizing yourself with this range could help in predicting the attack.

For those who don't know it the backwalk / arm walking is ranked as following in VF5 with modifiers (from blackbook / systemsite);

Pai: 1.0
Aoi: 1.0
Akira: 1.1
Lau: 1.3
Goh: 1.3
Jeffry: 1.4
Lion: 1.4
Shun: 1.5
Wolf: 1.5
Lei: 1.6
Brad: 1.7
Blaze: 1.7
Sarah: 1.8
Kage: 1.8
Vanessa: 2.0
Eileen: 2.1
Jacky: 2.1

This means that a Jacky player roughly almost moves twice as fast as an Akira player when using normal ARM. Don't fall into a trap of getting mad and trying to do the same thing cause it will be an uphill battle in some character matchups. That's not to say that actual ARM speed is the only factor counting; Anywon who's seen Saraaman play Wolf combining it with GS saw how well it worked for him. You're opponent will try to use moves with low recovery and range from which they can avoid nitaku. They'll just as much just watch for you to make a misstake and capitalize on it and your frustration.

Another thing is I think when battling this tactic it's important that you're patient and in general use moves back with as little recovery as possible. Use the time to gain space and remember how important walls and ringouts are in VF5. Don't dash blindly, in particular if you have weak movement. 66866G etc will work better (fastest way to cancel a DM is through a dash guard). I don't really think crouchdash guard etc is frutiful cause you open yourself up to the possibility of a stagger while you otherwise wouldn't. Remember that the player using this also limits himself / herself to a certain moveset. Say if Brad was moving backwards it would be very hard for him to shift into 66k as an attack was coming in, shifting into OM etc.

 

I thought those walking speeds were averages... that is, ARM speed varies depending on what direction you're walking in. And so, Vanessa is actually the fastest going straight back, but she's not the fastest in any other direction, so she's not at the top of the list?

Aoi doesn't have too much trouble with people who walk back. 66K will catch anyone who backdashes from start of match range or closer. A couple character's (eileen, vanessa notably) can walk out of range of 66K if they just ARM, and don't dash, but then 66P+KP will catch them. The bigger problem ends up being how bad 66K is on guard, so people will try and bait it with backwalking. Worst case you just let them run, and most of the long-range stuff they can use is fairly easy to reverse.

Btw, for anyone interested in playing this kind of matchi style with Aoi. Her walking speed is crap, but pressing 4 out of Tenchi is a great little backwards evade move. You can do things like hit with 2K+G, do the cancel into tenchi, and then hit back, and lots of attacks will whiff. Combine that with the fastest low in the game (BT 2P), and some great counter-hit launchers that don't get seen much (BT P+KPP, which has just the right speed/range to get recovery counter hit on a whiffed rising attack if the initial 2K+G knocked down), and you've got a winning formula. Of course, also note that you're often handing your opponent a free backthrow if they expect you to go into tenchi there, so it's not as universally useful as Vanessa's ARM.

 

what is the ARM of all the character's backwalk? I herd sebo I think claim eileen actually has the fastest backwalk in the game but I have not seen any actual proof of this. A chart would be nice

 

I don't know where to find a chart of *just* backwalk speed... though it probably would be nice to have. As for eileen actually being fastest... honestly, I would believe that in an instant. My 66K and 66P+KP attempts to catch up to opponents seem to fail on her even more than against Vanessa. However, I also don't get many chances to play against her, so it wasn't sure if it was just me.

 

Akai you are the stat master!

What's the difference in the two data sets that seem to be here. The ones with more than 3s.f.'s and the less ugly numbered one? From looking at it as I am now it seems like Jacky actually has the fastest backwalk in one set of data and pai has the fastest back walk speed in the other. . . little confused.

Glad we're getting this thread back on track. Really don't want it to turn into a bitchfest becuase I want to find a solution to this problem so I can pwdn nub cakes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

The first one shows (I belive it's in seconds) the time, after which the character has reached a marker (full circle sideways walking) or got out of the ring (i.e. backward walking).

The second one assumes the slowest character as a base (kinda minimum, that's 1) and shows how many times faster the other characters move compared to this one (that's why numbers like 1,xxxxx ... most of the time /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ).

Is that correct akai?

 

OK, just so everybody's on the same page as far as the mechanics involved, and the options that seem like they should work but technically don't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRxeUKxa6kc

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Details: this pattern is basically sidekick, backwalk for a little while ( could substitute backdash here without any real change in effect), evade, backdash to cancel the evade, backwalk some more ( could substitute whatever other cancels here ).
It's possible to avoid the jab, and the throw, with the same motion, ie there's time to back away and still buffer the evade. This is almost range-independent; extremely close range in open stance, she can get caught by the throw if she avoids the jab and vice versa. If you think I suck (no arguments there) and am getting the throw or jab timing wrong, i tested vs cpu throw too /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Some chars dont have as much of a problem with this particular pattern - wolf's normal throws simply reach that far; kage and sarah can do their /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif catch throws b/c they come out fast enough & have further reach, etc. It seems to me that if you have a fast catch throw, it's the most reliable way to stop backwalking; you'll notice the sarah in the video from the infamous other thread successfully used catch throw.

Because there's an evade fairly early in this particular pattern, circular moves can beat it. However, straight backwalking will avoid throws, elbow, short knee etc and avoid almost all of jeff's circular moves (immediate DM P+K will hit, lol, as will 1K+G ).

I forgot to show OM as an option; OM P will reach, OM ~ throw will usually whiff. I really dont see any advantage of OM vs just dashing in and throwing or kneeing; it'll lose to the same stuff (another sidekick or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).

Speaking of which, while this exact pattern is pretty obvious to beat (duh, just dash in and throw her), I programmed a similar pattern that randomly alternates between running away and running away only very briefly and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif; this is not at all trivial to deal with. If there's a timing to be able to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif fast enough to block the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, I couldn't find it. Even if the second sidekick is evaded, most I could guarantee after a successful evade was an elbow-speed attack; anything slower got blocked. Being only a couple frames faster overall than most other character's sidekicks may not seem like a big deal, but it seems to make a noticeable difference.

So, basically, from my perspective, it seems like movement speed makes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif essentially a reset situation on block.

Personally with jeff vs this kind of thing I use longrange moves that give advantage on guard in order to get in, and rely on being able to hit a knee often enough to equalize. But I don't think this is anything like a stable strategy . . .

 

with wolf? like how i beat akira whores.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif..

cant backdash it, cant backwalk it, and cant box step/evade it one way which alters depending on stance.

honestly, if she is outside of nitaku then every player needs a long range / trap option.

this is not unique knowlege.

extreme range cases requires me to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif though.. and delay slightly if opp goes boxstepping.

 

You try /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, dash in attack/throw?