How to build our community?

I spoke to a guy yesterday who used to run a boxing club for 30 years and it prospered. So he knows a thing or two about how to build a community. He said that there's always a bully. One that beats the snot out of newbs which will destroy their confidence and they'll never come back. I've seen this happen in many clubs, heck I've even done it myself unwittingly. But once he said it I instantly knew what he meant.

The solution is that you don't show your strengths. You spar with the people, practice, adapt to their ability (and I'm elaborating here myself on what he said because I can't remember it exactly) so that you can both have a bit of fun. I intend to speak to him again but this is something that I feel can really apply to the VF community. How many times have I been battered by a better player becasue he wanted to show how good he was? Fucking, loads. How many times have I done this to noobs? Proably the same amount. I'm an exception cause I'm very determined to win and I have self belief so I stuck with the game.

But what of the people who don't? The people who won't be the best there ever is but like and enjoy the game and want to play it. They want to have fun.

So I say to you guys, don't be so eager to batter the noobs. Perhaps ranked is a different matter but everyone likes a spar every now and then and not everyone is playing at their best all the time. I'm sure they'll be able to tell you're a good player from the one or two rounds when you show them what you can really do. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT ALL THE TIME.

Thoughts?

 

I like going hard 100% of the time with my main. I'll fool around with alts, but eileen is always going for your eyes every round.

 

I can't believe that's the only response.

 

This community is a fucking joke and it ain't going anywhere. You ALL need to take responsibility for your actions and invite new players to play. O, someone else will do it you say. Yeah cause that's worked wonders in the past hasn't it.

 

I dunno about most new players but I feel insulted when good or great players go easy on me since I'm still trying to level up. I actually hate when I win too easy and enjoy losing and learning from my mistakes. Any good player will tell you thats the only way you will get better. If I win 1 match out of 50 but feel like I truly earned that win its a great feeling.

 

Whoa, Animal, chill man. You just posted this thread today. Give it some time man, people will respond.
I don't really have much to say on the subject of taking it easy on noobs except that it was something I used to do in vanilla but in FS, you can't afford to give up not even one round.
FS is designed to give anybody and everybody a fighting chance, specially noobs.
It's not that losing is horrible, I play to win but if I lose it's ok as long as it was a good fight but when noobs start making huge mistakes the best thing you can do for them is to teach them what not to do by punishing those mistakes.

Look, there's a LOT of self-deluded gamers out there and if they either come close to beating you or actually beat you when they clearly just picked up the game and they can tell that you're a "vet" then, imho, I think that's just giving them false hope that they will be "pwning" eveybody withing a few days of practice, only to have that hope shattered by other players who won't go so easy on them.

 

AnimalStaccato, as a mediocre player with minimal time for offline comp I don't see kid gloves as appropriate while playing online or off. If losing at a video game alienates someone from picking the game up then chances are they do not have the patience to learn to begin with. People make a big deal out of the trial by fire thing with fighting games, and that does come off a bit overblown/silly to be sure, but consider that there might be some truth to it.

Perhaps this is more of a multiplayer FPS attitude but my primary goal in playing a game is not to entertain the other player, but rather learn what I can and enjoy the game myself. I'm a bit bewildered as to how I can be an ambassador for a game w/ people whose interests I can't gauge over XBL too. I also don't like giving unsolicited advice for how to improve over XBL messages because it almost always comes off the wrong way.

What I always wonder is if there's a more constructive way to help people feel welcomed beyond pointing them in the right direction when they ask? I don't like the idea of taking it easy on new players because it hamstrings the amount of what they're able to learn/not learn when starting out.

 

Yeah sorry this community isn't a joke. I care about it. And I care about the game, a lot. I'm just feeling very impatient atm and I don't want to see FS turn out like vanilla. I spend over half my time in the dojo because theres a limited window where I can get games. Other than that window in the evening which sometimes doesn't seem to be there. There's no human comp to play against. Theres no offline scene where I am. And from what I hear, not much of an offline scene anywhere else in Britain.

You guys ok about that? You just happy to have your fun and let this game die out in a year? 6 months? Less? I'm not. I want to do something.

Definition of community;
'Community: A group of people living together in one place.'

Adapted to take into account that this is the internet. A community is just a group of people.

When I brought this up in the shoutbox it seemed to be peoples opinions that you had to play a certain way to earn a place in this community. 'You can't play scruby'. 'You can't mash strings', etc. I say fuck that. That's the reason our community is so small and IMO is an example of the elitism that this community is known for. Some of these 'bad' players may never progress past a certain level, may only play at weekends, or may only learn half of their characters moves. But maybe those guys are fun to talk to, maybe they'll get their friends to buy the game because they enjoy it. I wish I wasn't so tired right now so that I could elaborate upon this a bit more elegantly. But we need to encourage all players to play this game, not just the ones that meet our expected standards.

I encourage debate and I'll try not to bark down peoples throats when I don't get immediate replies but I think that this view has some merit so I wanted to raise it. However inefficiently I may tackle this subject, at the end of the day I want what probably the vast majority of people here also want. To grow the community so that this game can flourish.

 

There are two options basically, either the entire site is 'elitist' or we let beginners post their stuff here which will then form a 'clique' of pro players who stick to themselves and won't mingle with beginners much. Those are the two options, nothing will change that.

Try posting something on Shoryuken.com and come back. I remember this one dude posted "Hi" in there and got "GTFO" as response. 2D-communities are more elitist than anything, yet they are also the largest.

In my opinion, after having tried to build Finnish VF community for years, it doesn't really matter how you deal with new people. They will like the game or they won't like the game, and basically nothing will change that. Of course, they shouldn't be actively driven away like Shang did, but overall I'd say it doesn't matter.

ps. I gave up trying to build the Finnish community about 7 years ago. Lo what happened, it had absolutely no effect on the amount of Finnish VF players. What I did or didn't do was insignificant.

pps. The best we can do imo is ensure that people interested about the game have regular 'brainfood'. Post matchvideos, post combovideos, post articles etc. Something that people can find easily and inspire them. The recent change with regularly updated front page news is a big step ion the right direction. But theres no reason to hold anybodys hand, that doesn't lead anywhere. VF community is stil the friendliest FG community out there, believe it or not. If you call us elitist, you have another think coming.

I've been in fighting game circles for about 18 years now. Nothing changes.

 

Once again, it's not about how you play or how you don't play. It's more about whether you are actually interested in game (very important!) and thus want to learn/progress because of your interest in the game. This is not elitism, this is how most games work. Will you have fun playing Chess with someone who moves horse like a pawn and (refuse to) learn the fact that both pieces move differently? Will it make your playing experience more exciting if he was fun to talk and still didn't want to learn the very first thing about Chess? How long will they keep playing it if they don't have any interest in learning the game in first place? This, of course, only applies if you want to view community from game's perspective, not personality or other unrelated facts.

If you look community as people playing X for pastime while waiting for a new activity/game and will most probably quit in a few months, if not weeks or days; we are apparently talking about completely different things.



Here's how I do it: if I play with someone who seems to play "intelligently" but have some bad habits/repetitive patterns/lack system knowledge; I send them a GG message complimenting their solid basics, give an advice or two about their style and redirect them to VFDC forums and system wiki for learning more about the game. This method actually worked and we got about a dozen new members and perhaps a few more lurkers.

 

I've noticed two types of "newbs" in my adventures online thus far: The type of newb that clearly knows nothing about the game and honestly doesn't care. They got the game because it was cheap. They're waiting for Tekken Tag or DoA to drop. Once it does, they'll never return.

And, the type of newb that gets their ass handed to them and then sends you an email on how to get better. They WANT to learn, they WANT to get better. And going easy on them just to make sure they have "fun" is an insult.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll be happy to lose 100 of the first type of newb to keep 5 of the second. In the end, we may have a smaller community, but it'll be a higher quality community. I'm ok with that...

 

I agree. If you're new to the game you can't really expect to beat players who've been dedicated players for years, and I think most people understand this. I don't want people to go easy on me and I didn't want that two years ago either. Losing a lot can be frustrating of course, but it shouldn't be discouraging. The way people approach you is way more important, at least it has been for me. Giving advice in a friendly way, and direct people here for more information can go a long way.

Of course not everyone have the time or desire to try and be the best, but surely anyone who wants to be a part of the community will want to learn the game somewhat, right?

 

I came aboard about two and a half months before FS was out. Let me tell you, it wasn't even because of Final Showdown. I started VF because I really liked how it played, more so than other games I played. I wanted to give it a shot before I went on the bandwagon with everybody else just ignoring it. I was tired of playing other games just because that's were the people was. So I went online, total scrub. Had messed around some in Quest Mode but nothing more.

So, I played some dude, can't remember who. Got blown up a few times but that was to be expected. Afterwards I got a message from him telling me he had fun, and that he wanted to play again sometime. That made me happy, because it didn't feel like my lack of skill was a burden to him as a veteran. I came back the next evening after some dojo training. Played some other dude, same thing happened. Even got some tips how I could improve instantly. So pretty much every time I went on, somebody, way better than me, sent me a friend request and tried to help me. It was never anything more than a quick messsage after our session, but that was enough. I had all the reasons to come back, because I had all these tips and tricks that I could try the next day. So every night I had tips from the night before, and after practicing those things I wanted to use them in fights.

I wish I could thank a lot of people, but I would probably forget some names. But everybody who played me in vanilla pretty much, thanks a lot! Without you I would no doubt had come and left. I stayed because of those games and messages.

Pretty much what I'm saying is that losing a lot doesn't need to bother people too much. You'll get over it the next day. But letting people know that you appreciate the games you had with them can go a long way. Even if you lost all your games, if the other player lets you know that he enjoyed the game/session you're still gonna be in a good mood. I felt like other Vf players wanted to play me because they had fun, instead of the "no one else is online so let's play until someone good comes on"-attitude. Maybe you just need to pick out one thing the other player does well, and point that out. That's gonna do loads for new people. Acknowledge their improvement and give them a reason to come back the next day. When they find themselves coming back each day, they might realize that they are actually not that bad anymore.

 

i agree 100% with blossy post!! one guy with name ChiefGutti( yea man you ) really helps me a lot and give it to me reason to continue and to be a part of that amazing community..im willing to do whatever needs for that community..!!

 

Well there must be something we can learn from the larger communities, not everyone there will be 'a bad egg', so to say.

I agree with this, the new site is great. But there must be something to learn from places like shoryuken. Perhaps they are more tolerant of assholes. We can deal with a few assholes round here can't we? I admit I don't particuarly like the sound of that, but an asshole is a person. And that's one more person in a community.

Negative attitude man, if our sole purpose was to grow a community then I'm sure we could do it. Life is compromise. If we cherry pick the nicest guys then our community will grow slower, if at all.

 

Not necessarily, some communities have trolls. Some communities have rubbish players with low skill and bad attitudes. But they male up the numbers and that's what keeps the game going/makes it popular.

No. Do I have to play them? No. And it exactly is elitism. You are saying you would only accept people who want to learn and progress. Some people may be too damn stupid to learn and progress. Who cares. They make up the numbers.

How can you know the answer to something that you have never put into practice? They may keep playing forever, because they enjoy it in their own way. Which may be different to your own way.

This is a fair point. In FPS communities, players come and go, drawn to the latest game to come out. This is likely the reason that map packs a staggered so that they draw people back and keep the game alive for as long as possible, as well as making money in the process. That would be SEGAs responsibility. We can only do so much. But I'm sure that we can do more.

That's great. That's the general advice that this community gives out. You are following the correct VFDC community appointed procedure. Congratulations.

Were you here for vanilla? Were you here for the 3 years when there were crap all people playing, with the scarce few dropping 1 by 1 every other week? Back thae they recommended that you do the same thing that you just said.

 

You sound like a nice guy. VFDC is full of nice guys. You fit in well here. It doesn't change the fact that this community is not as big as many other fighting game communities. I'm glad that you're happy here, and I'm glad you enjoy the game. Don't feel like you have to change.

But, IMO there should be a place for everyone in a community. And that's one way to make it bigger and keep this game going for as long as possible.

 

Elitism..

 

Very interesting topic... The thing is, I don't think I can persuade anyone anything, so I probably won't even try, but I will pitch in thoughts that have occurred to me. So if you decide to read this, bear with me

First... this being virtuafighter.com, it is very natural that the people who post here have gone through the following things:

• Enjoyed Virtuafighter or at least was curious enough about virtuafighter to do the following rest of the things on this bullet list.
• Registered at VFDC.
• Because of enjoying VF enough or wanted to be better at VF enough or curious enough about VF... they broke any shyness barriers they may have had to have posted here.

My point in listing these obvious things out is not intuitive, I'm not saying that the above is any type of worthiness or reason to be better. What it is, is a natural process to forming this particular type of online community and a very like-mindedness is natural... and with this, there is a natural bias in this vocal part of the community to be consisting of mostly competitive types, but also some very curious types of people.

I have met enough people who read VFDC as lurkers, but never post. I have played online and had conversations with people who read VFDC as lurkers, but never post. I have also had conversations in person and online with people who refuse to read VFDC because of comments like "too much drama" or "I feel like I'd be treated like an idiot there."

My experience is the gross majority of people, and this includes people that play VF regardless of how long or how often, play VF because it is fun for them. At some point, the definition of fun changes, and the goals change. A lot of people who voice out by posting on VFDC, naturally, are aspiring for something--to be better at the game usually, but it could be other things. But most people, more than the ones that post, really are just enjoying the game in some way, sometimes with just a roommate or friends.

Heck, if you look at a lot of the California promotional events, SilePai went to a lot of the Final Showdown events! She made time for these, and in two different sides of the state. And I cannot speak for her personally, that would not be right, but my impression of SilePai is that she simply enjoys Virtua Fighter and it is something that has meant something to her since college days in the East Coast or maybe even before. She knows the old Boston crew and she knows some of the current California players. She even went to Evo! And the thing is, I don't get the impression that she's trying to beat the world or anything--I think she simply likes the game, she likes playing in tournaments too, and she's having a good time. And she's definitely not the only one like this.

As for me, yes, my goal is to be better. But I also love this series beyond my success in the game, it's just fun to play this game with almost anyone for me. For me it is at its most fun when you play against better people or people you can have a rivalry with. But truth be told, it is fun even when I play against beginners, especially when I see them learning things, but even if they're just having fun in their own ways. I do compromise a bit when I play against them, I'll change the conditions of how I can win by restricting myself. This might not do the best favors to them competitively except they are still fighting me in some competitive manner and with me being serious enough, but also, this allows them to enjoy the game still. I come from an arcade background where every person's time on the machine is invested in quarters.

If someone tells me they want me to fight the real me, of course I'll give it. And if someone's goal is to play in a tournament or to train, then I'll give it too. But if something about how a person is acting tells me they are playing just for fun and to try the game out and get a sense of what they can do in it, I do want them to get a taste of the game on their character's end too. I'm in it because I love the game, so I hope others will love the game too. Not just as a platform to beat people, though winning is the best motivation between two competitive people.

Also, I do enjoy community building and I think I'm decent at it. The Northwest VF thread and other places (like the Northwest VF group though I keep that one private and just to Northwest players) are proof of how active the communities I am more involved in are--so I do think my actions do matter to some degree, they are not the end all and be all, but I like to think they matter. The odds have always been stacked against us in Virtua Fighter because VF has not always been so immediately rewarding and some understanding of the system is kind of required to competitively enjoy the game. But if you look through the Portland community you see a consistency of new and old players playing the game and if you go to events in person you see new people trying it out and often saying "man, I couldn't see it before, but I'm really liking this game now." Femto has also been doing well to share the love of this game in Seattle though that outpouring of enjoyment in the game isn't seen as much on VFDC for various reasons (people lately are more comfortable posting on facebook when it's community, some people do think VFDC is elitist or dramatic, people are really afraid that someone is going to go harping on how wrong they are when they post here, etc...).

Another point is that beggars cannot be choosers. Because VF is not so popular, I cannot always choose who my competition is locally (though online adjusts this but I way prefer playing offline no matter who I play against, to be honest). And my experience says if you want to grow a community, enjoy the game with those who are enjoying it too and share the enjoyment with those who will probably enjoy the game--play for fun first. Then, when you finally have a position of choosing who to play competitively with, you can work out the training and improvement goals with those people. But I would also say don't forget those people who are playing for fun--they often end up being ambassadors of the game who help grow the community by getting other players to give VF a shot--and sometimes the friends they bring end up being your competitive rival too.

I never complained about the level of play in my area. I tried really hard to be a solution and I think that's worked. There are players in my city who are on par with me in the game now and we are driving each other to be stronger. And they did not become strong because of me, but I just gave them extra incentive to train in the game and enjoy it, and they did the hard work along with that. But a lot of them would not even bother to train if there was nobody else to train with, and that would not have even been the case if there was nobody to play with them when they were not as competitive at the game.

I am a competitive player. But I also love this game on a fun level and more than anything I love enjoying this game with others. Seeing someone enjoy VF does indeed make my day. I've traveled a lot for VF and found excuses to play VF in different places too. VFDC is awesome, but it's a part of the overall VF community, but it is the most publicly vocal part of it and that is actually great. It is natural for competitive minded players to go to VFDC and actually post. It is also natural for people posting at VFDC to be very like-minded and this is typical in online forums everywhere and facebook groups too--hive/herd mentality is pretty normal in the online age of matching up with interests and backgrounds. So it is natural for VFDC to have a competitive-minded bias to it, and this is my best guess.

ANYWAYS, I went on with a lot of thoughts, if you made it this far, thanks for bearing with me. These are just my experiences and we all have them here, with VF and with local VF communities, and with VFDC, and more ^_^
Cheers