How to deal with Chicken Play

Yes, folks, Japan is hardly devoid of obnoxious players. The style of play I have yet to fully adjust to are the "chicken" types... the Laus, Jackys, and Lions (mostly) that love to backdash, poke, backdash, wait, run in, throw.

I'm wondering what sort of suggestions people have in dealing with players like this? Vanessa has a few very useful, very damaging long-range attacks, but they are also very counterable if they miss/are blocked. Nailing people with OS + is really fun... until they learn how to duck. (-_-)

There are some chicken-style Lion players in this area whom everybody knows and absolutely hates. They're low dan but have managed to take down a few of the higher-level players on occasion, even though they simply are not that good, and everyone knows it. It's very frustrating when you KNOW you are better than the other guy, but you are denied victory just because of BS tactics.

What surprised me is that famous guys like Neo-Tower, Yoro-kage, and Segahru are considered to have somewhat chicken play... at least by my teammates. Must be all the backdashing.

 

This really strikes a chord with me. CHicken/machi is a COMPLETELY valid form of play...in a fight, you fight to win..if that is how you win, then so be it. For such type players...just do the same thing and develop tactics to goad them into you...but don't bitch about the style, just adapt to it.

 

Ok now I feel bad about using this tactic...I always found lion to be hard to use in close quarters. I guess i better rethink my playing style to avoid being yelled at If i enter a tournament or something

 

Zerochan I've noticed the same thing playing friends here. The thing is.. like shadowdean said.. it's a very effective and valid tactic to use. Although it's hard for players that are offense oriented to beat this tactic, since it is a counter offense to offensive play, it needs to be adapted to. In fact, my friend that plays vanessa utilizes the same tactic very effectively, but at the same time, he can fall for the same trick. One of the best move to use against chicken/machi play is +, and crouch dashing and lp is not a bad idea. What you need to watch out for, is not to get hot headed and fall for the same tactic consecutively, since many people who uses this tactic will abuse it to death. So if you eat a FC,+ by pai, for example, do NOT TR and charge in to eat the same move again. Hopefully this helps, and hope to hear what other people have to say about this also. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

I can see your argument as far as turtling but as a good player you have to be able to defeat every tactic not just the common ones. I actually just started using "machi" style recently and I find it refreshing as a Vanessa player. It has made me faster with my movements and I have developed a good amount of patience while learning this style(not to mention made me a better blocker). In the end its all about the win IMO.

 

The easiest thing I can suggest is to calm down. If let your opponent get you mad then he's got half the battle won already. Gettin' mad is never good unless it gives you Chibita-like skills which usually doesn't happen. Be calm, alert, and observant. Study your enemies patterns,habits, and instincts and use them against them.

 

Josh, that's a really simplistic and naive statement.

I used to think that way until I got good enough to realize what machi really was, and what it was like to play against it. Only then did I realize how much it cheapens the game.

-Jason

 

It's nice to hear someone actually say that.

spotlite

 

Here's 3 basic ideas.

#1. Move in crouch as much as possible using CD. That way you avoid throws, and if you do take LP you're in a crouched state and don't have to E-DTEG or attack, also rise to block mids such as elbow on reaction. The defensive players only real counter for this is to low throw you often. Basically from here you can attack what he wants to do, which is LP/throw you, by ducking and punishing his throws and CD back to punish LP/rise to block mid.

#2. It can really help if you're playing a character with a +2 advantage on a blocked standing P making it hard for them to duck throw. When they get defensive you can start throwing lots of P's which will make them want to crouch and LP. Be ready to really hurt that LP.

#3. Play another game? <-------For the machi whiners. /versus/images/icons/blush.gif

 

Actually if you cant beat the machi player who can win, he is the better player. Being a turtle doent automatically mean you suck. In fact it usually means your better at defense.

HadoKKEN

 

Hm.....

I think thatz quite true. Being Machi is just one style in VF so if you cant win, its time to really think whether the problem lies in the opponent or in you.
But no doubt, I too get irritated with such playing styles.
But remember if you win, win it with style or if you lose, lose it with style too.
Look down not on the machi players but on the sore losers.

 

Zero:

There's nothing wrong w/ your post. But do notice that you're talking about Jacky's & Lau's here. (I resent the Lion part - he actually requires some skill). Anyways, here's what you should do, since you're on VF.NET.

1: Set your chat messages. The best one I ever saw was a guy I know. After slapping the tits off of a chicken Kage, his chat message said, "Why're ya backing off so much? You going somewhere?". Do to the limited rudeness in japanese, this more than sufficed for the point.

You could always make up your own. Something like, "Nice *ONE MOVE* you got there".

2: Yes, chicken fighting is valid, but So is abusing Vanessa's goods, which are:
DEFENSIVE:
which sabaki's almost every high/low attack in the game (including crescents). Mix it up -- throw after you sabaki, or go for a high damaging combo.
This isn't throw counterable, nor dodgeable. Use the hell out of it.
and it's variations - my favorite being. +

OFFENSIVE:
I don't know so well, but there are a few moves that get me.
The last two kicks will usually get a counter, as they either think your'e coming in for a throw, or just screwed up the combo.

Remember to alternate your punches in the takedown.

is all guaranteed if the kick is a counter. Then the pounce after that. Enjoy. Also mix it up with:
-- similar to the one above. That last punch is really quick, and not throw counterable.

The best thing to do though, is just wait. If they want to run off -- let them.

 

Just keeping playing against the chicken players and you will adjust Zero. simple as that.

 

Zero:

I used Vanessa for awhile against adamYUKI's machi Lion and these are my tips (albeit for Version C):

1) Abuse the low catch throw. It is catch so you can be close to mid range and suck in an opponent's low P whiff. Even if the D+P+K+G is broken, you're at +2 so if you think the opponent will try something bigger than a safe P, do the D+K, P, P string since it will counter hit and guarantees that every part of the canned combo will hit then you get the free pounce as well. If you think the opponent will do a backwards CD, the catch low throw will grab them but I think Shinz step is invulnerable to it.

2) Use her special attribute moves that hit low attacks or evade them such as the F, F+K+G, F+P+K and DF+K in Muay Thai. F, F+K+G is circular and only -1 on block so it's great for pressuring an opponent against the edge of the ring. F+P+K gives a high damage combo in Version C but I believe that opponents can now ukemi the flopping hit in Evo so you have the ukemi guessing game.

3) Use Intrude Body Blow when you think that someone like Lau will poke you with an elbow. You get the ukemi guessing game in Defensive stance or decent damage combo in Muay Thai.

4) Use her sabakis and frame stats to your advantage. I'm not sure how they changed her Parrying Kick in Evo but it's useful for going through moves that Vanessa can't normally beat. The sabaki frames start after the first frame of the move executes (I think). A Defensive Elbow after the Parrying Kick will usually make the opponent defensive so take advantage of this situation. Advanced players will do E-GDTE and similar techniques. Her catch throw (F, F+P+K) works well here or just doing F, D+P+G is also good since few people will break that direction with her.

5) Abuse Cut Upper (DF+P). It's only 10 frames but it has very short range and is high. If it hits, you get +2. I often do it multiple times if an opponent is trying to be aggressive. Once they eat it a few times in a row, they usually calm down and will wait for your next move. If it whiffs, you can delay the followup Faint Body Blow to try to get a counter hit which yields a stomach kuzure.

6) If you think you're going to get thrown, do either Heavy Impact (B+P) or F, F+K+G hit throw in Defensive or Lightning Elbow in Muay Thai. Heavy Impact gives you +20 on counter hit and I'm certain only the best players are aware of this so you can use the D+K, P, P string to interrupt any counter attack.

OK, enough random rambling... /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I used to think that way until I got good enough to realize what machi really was, and what it was like to play against it. Only then did I realize how much it cheapens the game.

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Machi play only reduces and simplifies the choices of the opponent and yourself. You just have to adjust your play style to it or die. I'm not a fan of this style but I try to work around it. You can ask the NYC crew how much they like K(G) cancel throw. /versus/images/icons/cool.gif

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I'm not a fan of this style but I try to work around it.

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That's all you can do.

My only point was that many people legitimately find machi play annoying and that it took me a while to understand why they feel that way.

-Jason

 

my god this topic is old... people bitch about machi cuz they suck themselves. Obviously their gameplay ran into a wall that they can't improve against other people who know how to defend. stop bitching about it and learn how to deal with it, or you'll continue to suck for the rest of your vf life. which is true for those hardcore anti machi people.

 

i love shang

 

Heh everyone wants to chime in on this.
It's very frustrating when you KNOW you are better than the other guy, but you are denied victory just because of BS tactics.

It sounds jerky to say this, but if you lose to their tactics with any consistency, you just aren't better :/ ... you might be SMARTER, but VF isn't entirely about brains, otherwise it'd just be chess. They may be able to use superior reflexes or spacing to avoid punishment or attack safely in situations where less dextrous players would lose some life.

That being said, I don't have a ton of advice for vanessa specifically, but for every character I've ever played the basic pattern to move in close and poke an enemy is to do either:

1. hold forward, then press punch for an advancing jab... then d+P for a low punch
2. advancing jab... then elbow.

The jab is great because it's pretty much the only universal attack in the game that leaves you at a slight advantage even if it's blocked... so your goal is to simply get to the range where an advancing jab will at least be blocked, toss it out, then if it's blocked an immediate d+P will stuff pretty much any attack they can possibly try.

The idea behind the jab, elbow variation is that it will stagger low punches but vanessa doesn't have a nice generic elbow... so maybe F+P --> df+P.

Finally, watch the space between vanessa and the opponent closely as you toss out the advancing jab. Look for the yellow major counter flash and go immediately to your favorite throw. Alternately if the jab whiffs or is blocked, and you decide to follow with the low punch, again watch for that telltale flash to allow you to throw. Throws are your best friend vs. machi, and it works to occasionally toss out a LOW throw at close range even though your opponent appears to be standing and guarding. If they're good at fuzzy guarding, they will often duck just in time to get caught by the low throw.

 

Perhaps..but that does not change what I said, naive or not. Should we take what you say a bit further and say that everybody should play to be flashy and not win???