How to deal with crouchers/evaders with midstring?

I tend to have a lot of trouble dealing with opponents that play with nothing but un-PK-punishable moves and crouch or evade constantly, and what sometimes appears to be completely random. Maybe it's just cause the majority of my play right now is online, so it could just be that when I try to time stuff properly any slight lag in frames gets me beat on, but, I'm not sure.

I know Sarah has a ton of cool tools where you can delay the 2nd hit to protect you from when your opponent evades the 1st strike.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

For me, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif are used the most. A situation that comes up CONSTANTLY during play is where my opponent likes to crouch, or evade, or even crouch then evade. This helps them deal with Sarah's advantage highs and dangerous mids, leaving her wide open. So in situations where P isn't guaranteed, my opponent will often times crouch or evade the P, this is where P4K comes in, cause I thought the property of this move was to hit crouchers with the 4K knee or delay the 4K ending to catch evades.

None of this stuff seems to work consistently for me, and it does nothing but cost me rounds and matches. Where, if I get the first part evaded and even bait the evade and try to stall the next hit, it either still misses or the hit itself is completely ignored and I get launched and lose more than half life(and it's like every other character can do this damage). It's messed up cause I'm trying to prevent this but it's not working.

It seems like the other characters and people that use them, will play as safe as possible using moves with high damage potential that leave them un-PK-punishable, at which point even with my advantage I'm forced to guess between them using 2P or DM(or DM P+K). P4K should handle something like this, where if they try anything high Sarah's P would handle that, if they do 2P the 4K would take care of it, and if they evade the P the 4K would catch their next move unless they evade twice(which doesn't happen often).

P4K imo seems to be one of the best tools Sarah has in her striking game to deal with crouch/evade as immediate disadvantage options, and I even see it used alot by players like fernandino and NORI438.

I also use Serpent Cannon(not withstanding the annoying 2nd hit whiff issue) in the same manner, it's higher pay off and it's good for when you know you're at a high advantage and can use Serpent Toe uninterrupted. If someone wants to sit there and crouch, you hitcheck and be on your way. And if they decide to evade instead then you catch them with the 2nd hit.


This stuff rarely works for me, including other moves such as 6PP and 6PK. The 2nd hit of all of these moves either just fail to track or get beat outright with the strike they try to use after evading.

It's messed up and I need help, cause this type of stuff is causing me matches, and it makes me freeze up against opponents that do nothing but play safe up close. So I end up having to run away from my opponent and play wimpy. Sarah has no choice but to play unsafe, but she does have plenty of tools to deal with opponents who decide to play safe, yet for me it's too inconsistent.

Basically I need help on the timing for catching opponents with the 2nd hit of strings, after evade they've successfully evaded the 1st part.

But Slide, why not just use roundkick(8K+G)? Well, that only works if they didn't randomly pick the right the direction to evade.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Try not continuing the strings and find other options. You're usually not supposed to be able to catch evaders by just delaying the strings. If they constantly evade you can punish it with a delayed dragon cannon for maximum win.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Delayed Dragon works if I'm sure it's an evade, if it's not then sometimes it can end up being something worse. I give up my advantages for delaying dragon cannon. So I thought about throwing too, but in those instances DM P+K would clash or the throw would be escaped, or I'd eat 2P or unclashables. Hardly a good choice if 3 out of 4 options in the situation beat throw, and they also can beat delayed dragon cannon. so using her 9P+G catch throw is the better option over regular throw if I'm sure an evade is coming, but that's where I looked for the delayed strings an option over a catch throw.

Delaying dragon is definitely something I should work on though, most def. But it's something I can't really train in dojo though, this is more trial by fire. Not sure how effective delayed dragon is though, because I don't see any Sarahs ever using that anymore, I only saw it vf4, not 5. I think that's partially due to it's risk/reward now.

It's kind of like, my advantage doesn't even feel like an advantage. If I'm forced to have to guess between what throw or strike beating options they'll go for. My advantage I have to give up to watch their retaliation.

And what do you mean by you're usually not supposed to be able catch evaders by delaying strings? I thought that's what some of the longer delayable strings were meant for, as a part of hitchecking.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Just so I'm clear are you saying they initiate an an exchange with some attack (let's just say punch string) and then auto input sidestep so that your retaliation gets evaded? A lot of Jacky players use this as his DM is pretty good. I try to use two tactics against this

1. Full circular counter such as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (be carefule about the sweep because some DM will go over it. I also use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif ( I think it is full circular but you said it can be evaded) I have decent success using this though. Although the full cirulars take a little longer to excecute, the evade the opponent uses gives you more time for the attack to connect. So it's just a matter of changing the attacks you counter with, eventually they will stop evading som much and you can get back to the counters you are more comfortable with.

2. Simply wait for the DM and counter. Some people aren't actually looking for an attack to sidestep, they are just doing something automatically. If you hold for a little bit an block the DM you are at more of an advantage. The problem is you expose yourself to throws while guarding so you have to practice your throw escapes.

Aside from that Sarah's punch strings track pretty well. Her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif tracks evaders pretty well. And, throwing is also a good option against pesky evaders.

Against crouchers I like to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif strings, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif as these attacks jump over low punch and other low attacks. Sarah's elbow and various follow up are good but against low punch spammers it doesn't work so well unless you block the low punch first. Also get used to checking the elbow to see if it hits first before continuing the string.

Sorry if my thoughts seem scattered or if you have tried all this stuff before. In ranked matches you don't have a lot of time to adjust. I've lost to countless matches to DM abusers and LP abusers because I changed my strategy too late in a match. So the real key is recognizing what they are doing and making quick adjustements.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

This is a HUGE generalization... Sarah is so fast that most other characters can't just stand there and try to trade pokes with her because they will lose EVERY time. The way most players will answer Sarah (or certain types of Brad play) is by waiting for their opening and punishing. Playing abare or trying to out jab/poke Sarah is not possible with most characters so why even try?

People are probably killing you because they expect you to abare out of most situations so they know to block or low punch you. If you use a fast character you have to balance abare and throw because it's too easy to evade someone you KNOW will abare every time. If attack and you block they will just buffer an evade knowing that you will probably try to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif out of it and beat you. One of the FIRST things I look at when fighting a new opponent is if they abare a lot or not and go from there. If I can figure them out early and they don't switch up it's over.

The best way to deal with evade spam, IMHO, is to counter with a throw. Sarah's throw game isn't strong but unless they are using ETEG it shouldn't matter too much.

I think you are forgetting how your character stacks up against the others. She usually has a speed advantage so you have to take that into account when trying to predict your opponents strategy. If they are giving up a lot of speed to Sarah they will play more defensively, poke less and evade more so remember that. A nice mid-range circular sweep will work wonders here too because it will beat evade, low punch (at that range) and high attacks so maybe try that too.

Just trying to help.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Everybody probally said this aready but you should delay your string inputs to the last possible frame to throw off your timing. And not to be rude but maybe you shouldnt spam the same string over and over again. Most characters strings have ALTERNATe endings, one where they end in a HIGH , and one where they END in a MID. And sometime one ends in a low. kEEP THEM GUESSING. Not accusing or judging or anything , but if they are EVADING your string, its most likely because YOu STARTED is from like 10 feet away. So basically you back dashed, started string "A", then PRAYED they are stupid enough to not yomi and duck or evade. Kage, Jacky and Sarah players on Ranked love the BACKDASH-Flail Method, thats when My GOH or Vanessa uses their respective 4,6k and sabakis the shit out of them.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Wow you guys are misunderstanding everything that's going on in this thread. The only person that somewhat addressed the issue, was Jeneric.

Yes, that. Generally with a move that's safe, so you're at advantage and you're having to guess to use your advantage or give it up to see what they'll actually do.

8K+G is half circular, not full.

It's only half circular. However, this is pretty good option, because if they get around your half circular then you can 4PKG.

Yes I've tried all of this stuff before, you underestimate the opponents I face that do this aswell. Basically they make you guard a move and then Sarah is at a point where she has to possibly put herself at -18, to deal with a situation she was in ADVANTAGE.

6PK as an example is a good move in VF because you can delay the 2nd part to catch evades, when you hitcheck the 6P. So not only are you hitchecking for guard, a counter hit, or a stagger, you're also hitchecking for an evade to react accordingly.

Gernburgs, I do not play abare. It's my ADVANTAGE. I successfully guarded their move, and now I'm guessing between them doing 2P or sidestepping, because their move wasn't even PK punishable. An example would be Akira SDE, I guard it, I can't let them get away or they can run and present the situation again. If I respond with 6P upon guarding SDE, if they choose to sidestep it I want to delay the next hit(i.e. P or K) to catch the evasion.

This is possible, and this is basic VF. My dilemma is that I need help on the timing, or an answer to why it doesn't always work correctly and is inconsistent.

I know the alternatives, and use the alternatives that EVERYONE in this thread has mentioned thus far. Those same alternatives put Sarah at a punishable disadvantage, unlike the safety my opponent just had. So I'm looking to delay my strings properly. Forcing them to double evade, or evade and deal with my next move instead of getting away.

Delaying it to the last possible second works?

ZenTou, I am not spamming the same string over and over, what is it about this topic that you guys do not understand? I'm not spamming, please re-read to get a better understanding.

<u>I'm not getting evaded midstring, I want to deal with the crouchers and evaders with delayed part of a string,meaning I delay the next hit to strike the croucher or have my opponent guard the move from their evade. </u>

Basically the problem is guarding constant safe moves with high damage potential(i.e. Brad knees, Akira SDEs, etc.) and with no ability to properly or consistently punish, but instead fall into another guessing game of my own safety. Do you guys don't see how the opponent can spam these damaging safe moves and present this situation over and over.

The issue is how to punish the abare while delaying the next hit to track the evade.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

If you delay Sarahs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif second kick it has high chance of catching evaders, since they are likely to attack into the second kick. In theory it is halfcircular yes.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Thanks, man. Now to clarify, am I delaying it till the last possible point?

And with this same idea, I'm trying to figure out the timing for 6P(P or K) and 2P+K(K), also 2K(K). because sometimes I can get 2P+KK to catch the evaders, and it's very powerful this way and essential Sarah imo.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0X27dFjI1CQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0X27dFjI1CQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X27dFjI1CQ

Check that out. K+G is a pretty solid choice we should all probably make every so often, cause look at that reward right there. Oh BTW though, I think some DM P+K's go under highs too, so that's, crouching, DM P+K and OM you gotta all watch out for.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Yeah circular attacks work well, like my vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits mid for crouchers and hits circular. Not saying you spam, but maybe your opponent has seem your string so many times before they can yomi it like a book. Its better in those cases to use combos that ARE NOT canned. See the black book, but note that the Black Book is just a starting point. Develop your own combinations from there.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Regardless, if you're at a small advantage and they evade, you're probably better off as I think it's easier to punish than a good fuzzy guard. If you guess right at advantage with a throw a quick mid you will come out on top. There is no move in the game that isn't avoidable in some way. If they guess right and evade your attack or low punch your throw attempt, that's just good yomi on their part if they can guess right consistently and damage you from a disadvantage.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

This is a weakness in that Sarah doesn't have a first hit readily available full circular mid attack. That's why the guessing between crouching or evading can be a big issue, and this thread is a discussion in trying to figure out how to delay strings to cover this hole.

I wouldn't call it yomi if you just stand there guarding and they go into either 2P, evade, or DM P+K automatically like a robot. I'll punish what's done at that point, but I just gave up the previous advantage to do so. I'm looking to make USE of that advantage instead of giving it away.

EDIT: I fixed the thread titled, cause maybe this is where all the confusion is coming from.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Well if we are all misunderstanding your question I would say you are misunderstanding some of the responses. So let's go back

If you block a move and are at advantage but your retaliation gets evaded and you get hit with DM but not because the opponent is reading you and reacting but just because they evade after moves. In this situation you don't need to hit check strings to hit the evader, just choose a counter attack that will hit the evade i.e. K+G. If they are trying to abare with LP then chosse a counter attack that will beat LP i.e. 6K+G, 8K+G. Once again this is for opponents who are not reading and reacting just spamming LP or abusing DM.

There is no one move or technique that is good for all situations so think about what they are doing and adjust your attack accordingly. The techniques you use to beat these types of players may seem odd and counter intuitive, but we all have to adapt to what's happening in that match.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

After a successful evade, the opponent is off-axis from you. No matter how long you delay the followup motion in the string, it will not bring you back on-axis. You will only get back on-axis if you start an entirely new attack, or they press some buttons.

Sometimes you can catch an evader with a delayed string if they immediately try to do something after their evade, but this isnt worth relying on. Delayable strings are imho more for fooling the opponent into thinking youre done, then beating their attempt to counterattack.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

This guy..

Look man, your post reads and sounds pretty good in theory and in hindsight. It's cool and everything, you're giving me advice I'm already aware of, and that wasn't even the reason this thread was made(it's a thread about how to delay follow ups to combat evades and to beat early crouches, and the timing involved to do so consistently). However it's good for someone that doesn't know those things you meantioned though, and is following along, they can read some of these posts.

There is no one move or technique that is good in this situation? Someone choosing to crouch or evade?

It's a called a full circular mid.

Again, Sarah does not have a full circular mid readily available. I thought that this was common knowledge for Sarah players though, but if it's not now you know, and I'm really surprised that some of you guys have no issues dealing with that silly guessing situation because of not having a full circular mid.

To remedy not having a full circular mid, moves like Serpent can work in it's place, where if they're crouching you confirm the hit and follow to the 2nd part to float, or if they evade the first part then you delay the 2nd part as long as possible to catch retaliations.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Shoot, I guess that explains how sometimes I've had 6P get evaded but have the K knee hit them on their attack, yet i'll do something P(G cancel to stop immediately), my P is evaded, and I go into another strike and it just loses outright or even whiffs off to the side of my opponent.

Oh and the pressing buttons thing is what i mean, if someone evades and tries to strike my delayed hit of the next part of my move I want to be able to consistently time it.

It's crazy cause, I know well and good what the situation is when it's presented, I guess reading that they will act instead of just guarding, but I never always know for sure if it's low or evading. A full circular mid I'd just use here everytime I feel they're going to make a move, but Sarah doesn't have that so I'm looking for alternatives.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

After SDE, akira can't backdash or backdash evade away from both elbow and throw, can he? He can't duck the throw. His reverse nitaku generally sucks; if he 2ps your throw, you lost all of 5% of your life and can fuzzy guard. If he evades the elbow, he has nothing guaranteed (36 - 21 - 8 == +7 advantage at most); i dunno if he can guarantee a DM P+K with fastest timing here, I know jeff wouldn't be able to. If you want to be super-machi, evading your lowpunch instead of an elbow will net him essentially nothing.

I think the lack of throw guaranteed situations in VF5 is as stupid as the next guy, but elbow-or-throw is still generally a safe option, especially if you're just poking with the elbow (ie not doing the followup strings).

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Ok Slide, I thought I was helping but every response, not just to me, has been met with "You guys are missing the point." So just keep on trying to delay strings to hit these people. I was just saying try something else. I don't know why I'm the jerk in this situation.

 

Re: How to deal with crouchers/evaders in mid-stri

Yeah, that's why I'm trying to find a way to punish with Sarah in a situation where a mid full circular would do. Sometimes delaying my strings worked, and I wanted to know what the timing was on how to land them when opponents evade and attack.

But yeah thanks man, I guess i'll just have to stick to the elbow or throw. Cause that does work, I was just hoping to get some Serpent going.

I only said that to you, Gernburgs, and ZenTou. And it's cause you guys were giving me suggestions that are already known, instead of addressing what I was actually asking help on. Nah man, you weren't being a jerk, maybe I was/am.