How to stop evaders - the power of K+G

I've seen a lot of new Eileen users complain, rightly so, that her strings and Zenk options are too linear. When opponents realize this linearity, effective evading can really frustrate Eileen's offensive flow, so much of which relies upon Zenk mix ups and pressure strings. I wanted to post this as a resource for those having trouble with step-happy opponents -- there is an effective, full circular tool that sets up excellent mix up games which also (when used correctly) can frighten the opponent into non-stepping, thereby opening themselves up to the Zenk bread and butter again.

That tool is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

You can often pick up on your opponent's evading habits after a round -- if you're finding your opponent steps after you block their strings, if your opponent steps after blocked elbows, (etc): use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to punish any of these situations.

You may be asking yourself: "Why not just throw to punish evades?" Because a) Eileen's throw game is lackluster in terms of damage (that's putting it kindly) and b) with decent yomi, a successfully landed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif can yield much more damage than her throws while also setting up solid oki.

So, let's say you land /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Eileen is left in BT (back turned stance, an awesome place to be) -- from here, I like to sweep the opponent with BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. After perhaps two sweeps (sometimes just one), the opponent will begin to duck on reaction after being hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Now execute BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif which will crouch stagger the expectant opponent, setting up a few options:

1) guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif punishment
2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif > wari games
3) (my fave) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif > /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

After landing any of these, the opponent will begin to clam up when he sees BT -- you can then simply turn and throw to add yet another mix up.

The point here is to abuse steppers to the point that they are afraid to evade any longer so that Zenk options can again be applied consistently. If Zenk is the bread and butter of Eileen's game, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif must play a pivotal support role to strike fear in the hearts of would-be evaders everywhere.

 

Great advice! Hopefully I'll get the chance to use it in the near future. But for now, I'm broooke /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

The opponent can just learn to duck it (after they expect its usage) and get a free 0i back throw. (as good as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is, this is bit of info that needs to be know)

 

Don't forget about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to punish side-steppers when you're in the middle of one of your strings.

A lot of the people I played at Evo started dodging after exactly two hits...

 

sometime being a skillful fighting plays against them because you can predict what they'll do. I find a lot of strats don't work against noobs or people who don't know the setups.

 

One tactic which I think is worth mentioning since K+G will get blocked sooner or later.
That is using BT P+K+G, most people will try to use some fast move to outpoke your BT options, and I'm not sure exactly what this sabaki gets, but it seems to get alot of those.
It also seems that you're left at some form of advantage after a successful sabaki aswell.

After having landed this a few times new mindgames may begin.

However, I'm still a newb so this might not be one of the best tactics to use in this situation, but it has worked very well for me.

edit: looking at a thread straight under this one I noticed that it says that it sabakis HP HK and LP.

edit 2: Isn't QCB+P a full circular attack, and it's a special high aswell if I remember correctly?

 

That works unless the opponent steps the string set up.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is the special high.

 

While we're discussing the topic, I may as well bring up a good counter-measure to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, which are "ducking" moves. Especially those that get better results on a counter-hit.

One of the best examples for Eileen is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. If your opponent starts throwing out /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif because you're side-stepping like a crazy monkey, this move will nail them allowing you to combo afterwards.

One way to prevent this is to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif instead of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Note that it is 7 frames slower and, of course, the potential for follow-ups is not as sweet.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif also can be crouch thrown out of even if it hits i believe. I still use it but sparingly. I do also find that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to get crouched a lot aswell. I just opt to throw

 

Well basically if it's being ducked, the person isn't side stepping and Zenk stuff will continue to land. I only use K+G if I feel like I have a read on my opponent's stepping habits. If they just duck or abare, there are many other ways to deal with them; K+G is too slow and too high to work well for anything other than anti-step.

There is a Gorgeous vid that shows this tactic particularly well -- when I get home later I'll find it and post it up.

 

STL, you have the wrong idea about my post. It's more about options that open up for you if you get your opponent to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif , rather than what's going to happen to you if you abuse /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

I think it's important to note that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif should also only be used when you have trained your opponent to stand. Fortunately, as mentioned earlier, most of Eileen's zenk does that, so this shouldn't be a problem.


The command list says that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is -6 for Eileen on hit. Is that enough for a guaranteed low throw? I don't think it is, but I don't know for sure.


Apparently really good people can use EDG (Evade dash guard) and only be vulnerable for 13 frames. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif according to the Ver. C move list takes 17 frames to activate. Knowing this it may be important (depending on your opponent's skill level) to only use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif when you're at +5 advantage or more, or to also remember throws as a good punisher for evaders as Tricky mentioned.

 

No, guaranteed low throw would be 12 frames.

 

In all honesty, I really don't think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is all that great of a move. It's very situational, and requires lots of mindgames to even begin to implement without getting hurt for using it. Just shows how deep VF5 really is, eh?

 

Some people will find K+G more useful than others, because some people enjoy relying on mindgames while others want to base their game on guaranteed things.
However, it cannot be denied that K+G is a strong tool for working mindgames.

 

Scamp - No one is EDGing online. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I agree with JF_ that K+G is very situational, and that was why I wanted to make the post -- it is very powerful against people who step ALL the time. It is a great deal harder to implement against people who take a balanced defensive approach -- fuzzy, ETEG, evade, guard, duck, etc.

Online, however, is full of people who predictably step after you block their strings -- even fairly decent players fall into habits sometimes. For these opponents, K+G is totally demoralizing and REALLY effective. So I hope from my post I wasn't making K+G out to be some kind of godlike move or cure-all -- it is simply an awesome anti-evade tool. I have used it against great socal players, used it online, used it everywhere -- it works!

 

I might add that it is a very slow move in execution. Keep in mind, though, that it is a good move to use against people who like to try to outrange you and rush in. It stops dashes by either forcing the opponent to guard cancel their dash or get kicked in the face, opening up all kinds of deception options.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif= Good at a distance!

Ninja Edit: Don't use it against Akira, though. NEVER. Be wary using against Kage, Pai, and Lion, as well.

 

nice add-on I needed more distance moves anyway. Though if they stop short and block that would suck hard

 

Not against the characters other than the ones I mentioned, as far as I know. At a distance, blocking won't get them any decent damage. If you whiff, however...

 

whiff's in general hurt pretty badly with eileen because you can cancel into followups.

 

What do you mean by "cancel" into follow-ups? All they need to do is smack you with whatever they choose once your leg is coming back around. Akira is the prime example of this, which is why I mentioned him so strongly as a character not to use it against. Dashing elbow stagger FTW.