How to stop evaders - the power of K+G

oh my mistake I wasn't talking about the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif specifically there. I was talking about eileen's cancel techniques.

 

The tool for stopping evaders is not K+G, it's throw.

It can be easy to forget that Eileen has throws because of how quick she is, but if you don't throw her cancels are basically useless.

 

Srider you're back!! How've you liked ver. C eileen?

 

Hey Srider, welcome back. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My question then is: when should K+G be used? I ask this because I watch as much "high level" Eileen media as I possibly can, and these Japanese players certainly use it to cut off step rather than throwing all the time. It's what gave me the idea to write this post and add what I feel is a successful element to my Eileen game. Gorgeous is the example I always use, but there are several other players that I watch that use K+G to perfection.

It seems like opponents can effectively break 4 and 6, leaving me with the decent but limited 3P+G throw. If they step, K+G is guaranteed to hit and leaves a pretty solid mix up game afterwards with some rewarding options. You say her cancels become useless if you don't throw, but isn't K+G another way to force them back into an anti-step mentality (thus opening your cancel game again)?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. We've missed you on the EI board.

 

But shouldn't we throw if the opponent can't break throws as consistently. Maybe that's why they found that using K+G was a better solution against those that can break her throws. I'm still new with Eileen but that's just how I kinda see it.

 

That is true -- western VFers don't break as well as Japanese players; however, Eileen's best directions are the easiest breaks (4 and 6 - easy to mash escape) and good players can and do escape these on me all the time (LA Akira, Plague, Dre Fei, etc).

When opponents try to break throws or ETE and I K+G, I get solid damage and post-kick mix ups to work with. It serves the same purpose (anti-step) as her throws without the possibility of throw escapes. Granted, opponents who catch on can duck and 0 frame but by the time they become aware of your tactic hopefully you've begun to go back to your Zenk cancel game. K+G for me is a way to scare evaders into standing still, simply put.

If I'm utterly wrong, break my idea down and verbally abuse me Srider! If it'll make for better Eileen play, I can handle it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I think what he means is overall Eileens best choice to deal with evading is throwing cause option/damage wise it's probably better.

One thing is theory wise you may break eileens best throws (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif) but Eileen still has a pretty damn good nuetral and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif in her overall game plan.

Remember that neutral is very fast and 35 dmg plus a knock down which is more than K+G (25). Also note that Both K+G and throw will lose to low punch however your opponent cannot duck throw past -7 but can duck K+G and punish it for a lot of damage, add in throw will usually clash at high advantage given your opponent isn't doing low punch or other anti-clash attacks.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif isn't bad either, it does the same damage as K+G and gives you a funky mix up afterwards.

I think the best way to think of it is "How many defensive options does this one option that I choose defeat?"

Throw will beat the block and the evade. It will clash with slow move, lose on minor counter to moves that don't clash (ie too fast, crouching, backturned, jumping). The opponent can potentially break it if he guesses which throw I use.

I can land between 25-55 dmg

K+G will beat the evade and moves too slow to defeat a 17 frame high in the situation given. It will lose to block, crouching/crouching attacks, moves that avoid highs (kage 3pp, lei fei 33PP), reversal (K+G is not circular class), sabaki, and potentially moves fast enough to beat it in the given situation.

I will land 25-35ish dmg (normal, MC)

If it hits K+G is great but you still have to hit it and there can be many things your opponent can do to defeat it compared with say throwing in the same situation.

IMO, If you wanted an option to take out a ton of pure defensive options whiling attack, I'd do as your name says and "Sweep the Leg" lol. But then again..... I like being risky! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I do her neutral throw and 3g+p throw because I liked them and I like mixing people up. Didn't really think of the damage lmao but thanks for letting me/us know.

Also I will sweep the leg occasionally cause I also like being risky. . .

 

If it ain't -18 on block it DON'T COUNT!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Funny I'm also a risky player, but I lose matches sometimes because of it. Oh well

 

Obviously I'm not saying don't use K+G. But the risk/reward ratio is much better with throws compared to K+G.

Like what Unsafe Dan said as well, don't resort to K+G until you see that the opponent is breaking your throws.

Another good thing to use if you know the opponent will evade is delayed P+K. You can try 46P as well but the timing is really tight, and likely to miss if the opponent does ecd.

 

Ok.

I think that throwing (to beat evade) is something that you have to make a judgment on. Test it out when you know your opponent will evade. If they are reliably escaping throws, then it's probably not worth losing your damage and your advantage by allowing your opponent to put you at a frame disadvantage through escapes. If this is the case, you're probably better off using the full circular high.

If your opponent can't throw escape so well, then throws might be the better option (as the also beat another defensive technique of standing guard). This in turn, might even cause your opponent to try harder with their throw escapes, and begin to 'mash' them when they evade, which might then lead to a counter-attack.


If we look at the moves, we can see that both options (throw and full circ high) are screwed if they're crouched, so there's no argument for either move in that situation.
If they're guarded, obviously the throw option is better.
If they're evaded, then, as stated before, you have to make a judgment based on the quality of your opponent's throw escape capability.

From this, it's also worth noting that, if your opponent is more defensive, and is likely to either guard or ETEG, then throws might be the better option, as you will beat their standing guard, and you'll have a chance to beat evade. If your opponent is more aggressive and prefers to use reverse nitaku (attacking from the disadvantage), like trying an evading attack, then the full circ high might be the better option, as it will beat evade, and will counter hit any evading attacks they try.


We might also look at whether or not the move that you have guarded (which is forcing your opponent to take defensive measures) can be fuzzy guarded after.

If it can, and your opponent is mixing up between evading and fuzzy guarding, then a fastest timing throw is likely to whiff, should the opponent use fuzzy, and the kick is likely to be guarded. I'm sure we can agree that getting the kick guarded is less of a problem than having a throw whiff.


From this, I think that it depends largely on your opponent's play style, as to which option is the better. If they seem to be more conservatively defensive, using ETEG, along with standing guards, then I'd be more inclined to go with throws, as it can beat both options.
If they're more aggressively defensive, using ETEG, along with fuzzy guarding and evading attacks, then I'd be more inclined to go with the full circ high, as it can beat two of the three options, and is the better choice (of the two moves discussed) to be defended against with fuzzy guard.

Obviously, if you anticipate something other than an evade, you shouldn't be looking to do either of these moves; I have taken for granted that we assume our opponent will evade, and then proceeded to discuss what would happen if they didn't evade, so that we can see how effective they'd be in those situations (because they're both totally effective against the anticipated evade).


Now, if you come across an opponent who uses all of the defensive techniques above, then you're probably going to have to mix-up between both options.


That's just the way I see it; I'm sure some agree, and others don't.

 

That's it! I can't handle all of this discussion! I'm switching to Lei-Fei!

 

haha sry scamp eileen is difficult to use a higher lvl play due to her reliance on mind games, but don't give up on her. She's tons of fun to use on the way up.

 

I only brought risk/reward into this discussion because I don't feel like everyone is clear on the distinction between the two.

You pick throw or K+G for specific reasons. It's not that "oh, I have some advantage, and I'm just going to use the best risk/reward"

You throw for damage, you do K+G if you expect an evade and you know the opponent is employing ETEG and you don't want to deal with the guessing. There's no such thing as one is better than the other.

You have to remember that K+G is really slow compared to a throw, and it's possible to be counter hit out of it if you don't have enough advantage. At least with throw you can clash.

Also, I'd rather whiff a throw than whiffing K+G. Not only it takes more time to turn around and guard, but the recovery for whiffing K+G is longer.

If you want to deal with evaders, aside from K+G and throw, you have delayed attacks like PP6P, P+K. Use Eileen's canned strings that track like 6P+KPP, half circulars like 46K(ver B) or 4K+G, or even OM will work.


There's actually not much mind game to Eileen. Just abuse the shit that's almost impossible to counter and remember to defend when you run out, then repeat again when you have the advantage. Throw when they are guarding too much of it. Don't have to make things too complicated.

 

Would 214p be a good option for a SS'ing opponent? I used that on my friend if I thought he would SS and it work for the most part. I used K+G sparringly because of the repercussions of leaving my back open to Pai.

Also I used those attacks you listed as well Srider and they worked pretty well. A delayed 46k was good to but to hard for me atm.

 

Actually I'm not giving up on Eileen at all. I'm playing Lei-Fei because A: it's fun and B: when I play him I really don't know what's going on.

Can't implement mind games if I don't know what the opponent is doing.

 

actually in version B you don't even have to delay 46K, cause it's half circular in B.

 

I like the delayed P+K idea, I haven't been using that to punish failed evades. Gonna experiment with that tonight... :>